This interview was conducted on behalf of Charleston County as part of the project: Stories from Historic African American Communities: A Journey to Equal Education, W. Gresham Meggett High School, James Island, SC. Charleston County was awarded a grant from the Department of Interior and National Park Service (NPS) in 2018 to conduct this oral history project aimed to provide insight into the lives of African American students during desegregation. The project is structured by the NPS research framework: Civil Rights in America: A Framework for Identifying Significant Sites (2002, rev. 2008).
This interview was conducted on July 30, 2019 at the home of Mrs. James, Charleston County, South Carolina. Velma Fann, historian (New South Associates) was the interviewer; Jenna Tran (New South Associates) was the technical assistant.
Velma Fann: Good morning, I am Velma Fann with New South Associates and today is July the 30th. And I am speaking with Mrs. Willie James, one of those instructors both at Meggett and at Fort Johnson. Thank you very much. Ms. James, can you spell your first name and last name? Your full name for us, please.
Willie S. James: You said spell?
VF: Yes, ma’am.
WJ: Willie, W-I-L-L-I-E.
VF: Okay.
WJ: I have to have that S in the middle there—
VF: Okay.
WF: Period. James, J-A-M-E-S.
VF: Thank you. And, the date of your birth, as much as you’d like to share, and location, where you were born.
WF: Okay. April the first, 1934.
VF: Okay. And where were you born?
WJ: Orangeburg, South Carolina.
VF: And where did you spend your childhood?
WJ: In Orangeburg.
VF: In Orangeburg? Can you tell us a little bit about your family, how many siblings you may have had, your parents, their education, their occupation?
WJ: Okay. Mother was a teacher. And my father was a long-distance truck driver. I had six sisters and brothers. All of us went to college and graduated. The majority of us were teachers, ended up being teachers. My youngest brother, you know how the youngsters are, decided that he would not be a teacher, so he decided that he would wait to see whether or not he, because he played football, and he decided that he would wait to see whether or not he was going to get, because he was very good, get a scholarship and surely enough he got a scholarship to Michigan State University, and from there he was drafted by the Denver Broncos, so he played a year, for a year, with, you know, professional football. And, then he got injured, and he was no longer able to play, professional ball. But the rest of us were teachers. I had a sister who taught school in, and she’s still living there, in Cincinnati, Ohio. Another sister who, whose husband was in the service, and, service, and she travelled all around, and when they, when he retired, she went into teaching. And she lives in Alexandria, Virginia. And, we had another sister, who lived in Spartanburg, South Carolina. She’s deceased now. But she lived in Spartanburg, and she was a teacher also. And, I can’t talk without talking about my daughter because I’m so proud of her. My daughter is now, is an electrical engineer, in Alex—well, in Washington, D.C., but she lives in Alexandria, Virginia.
VF: Great. Now, it seems education was pretty important to your family.
WJ: Oh yes it was. My mother would, would never let us go out there in the world without a good education. Yeah.
VF: And that’s—
WJ: South Carolina State College.
VF: Oh, Okay.
WJ: That’s where went. Now, my one sister, well yeah, the majority of us did. We, they scattered later. Right, but, you know for further education at different schools.
VF: So, was becoming a teacher, was that your first choice, career choice?
WJ: Had no other choice because my mother said we were going to be teachers. She said we were going to be teachers, so that, what other choice did we have? And especially at, at, you know, my time, when I was living. 34, you know, okay.
VF: Yes. And where, and tell me again, where did you attend college?
WJ: Where did I attend—
VF: Yes ma’am.
WJ: South Carolina State. South Carolina State in Orangeburg. We couldn’t go any further, with all the children that we had, you know, my mother and father had, and they had to pay for their education. Where else could we go?
VF: So when did you come to Meggett?
WJ: I’m sorry?
VF: What year did you come to Meggett? And how did that happen? How were you recruited?
WJ: Well, I taught—the first school I taught at was Allston High School in Summerville, South Carolina, not too far from here, and I stayed there for about six years. And then, I decided that I would, you know what, get married, and so I got married and came, my husband was from Charleston, and so came here to Charleston. And, I stayed at Gresham Meggett for about seven years. I stayed at Allston High School six years, and, and then I stayed at W. Gresham Meggett seven years, and probably would have stayed there longer than that, but unfortunately the school closed without our knowledge.
VF: So we talk about Meggett. When you first arrived at Meggett, what was your impression, of the building, of the community, of the students?
WJ: The students were just fabulous. They knew what they had to do. They knew that in order to become somebody they had to go to school and, and because they understood that, they tried to get as much education as they possibly could. On that letter that I showed you a few minutes ago, you will notice what they said, and that was absolutely the truth on that letter, that what they said. They knew that, the importance of an education at Gresham Meggett, the students say Gresham Meggett, and they, they became doctors and lawyers and nurses and, you know, teachers. In fact that, so that lets you know that they knew that it was very important to—and we, we instilled that within them. And, of course, they tried to follow what we said, and they did, and they are out there. I’m so proud of them right now because they come to visit me a lot, some of them. Not all of them, but some, come to visit me a lot, and we sit down to talk just as we are doing now. And, they tell me about what they’re doing now, and the reason I’m saying now is simply because they’ve been out—I always tell them, you’ve been out just as long as I have been. 34, again. Are you wondering why I’m saying 34?
VF: What is 34? Tell us about 34.
WJ: I gave you my birth date.
VF: Uh-huh. [affirmative]
WJ: And I gave you the April the first, 1934.
VF: Oh.
WJ: So, immediately, you were supposed to check that out and see how old I am.
VF: Do the math, right.
WJ: You were supposed to immediately figure that out.
VF: Hm-hmm. [affirmative]
WJ: But anyway, that’s why—would you care for me to tell you about it? You can check it out yourselves.
VF: We, we can check it ourselves—
WJ: Okay, good.
VF: Yes, okay.
WJ: Very good. All right, so anyway, and, and I keep, you know, and my students do not believe, I say how, how you do not believe my age when I taught you? And, no, no, no, but at the same time, I, no, no, no, you would, nobody would ever believe that you are the age that you are.
VF: Hm-hmm. [affirmative]
WJ: And I say, well thank goodness for that.
VF: Now you taught English—
WJ: Yes.
VF: Is that correct?
WJ: Yes.
VF: You, and, and, and help me understand this. Sometimes people in the community may come from a Gullah background—
WJ: Uh-huh [affirmative]
VF: And speaking differently.
WJ: Uh-huh. [affirmative]
VF: Was that in your classroom, and how did you address it or did you feel the need to address it as an English teacher? Or tell me how that, that worked for you?
WJ: Well, you know, when I came down to, when I went to Gresham Meggett, I had to get accustomed to the choice of words, choice of phrases, that kind of thing, because I really did not understand them at first. I made it known to them that I did not understand what they were saying. For example, one day a student said, Miss James, Miss James, may I get a, well what did he say, may I get a, I can’t remember, what he said now, but anyway, it meant a sheet of paper. I said, what was that? And he said it again. And I said, well, I said you mean a sheet of paper. So that’s how I dealt with that. Every time they said something that I did not understand, I let them know that I didn’t understand, and I said this is what we’re going to be saying, you know. That’s a sheet of paper, and not whatever it is that you were telling me. And this went on and on. I had no problems really with it because, and I don’t think they had any either.
A lot of people would become angry if you tried to correct them, you know, or, or something of that nature. But, they did not. They understood, I think, and the next time they wanted—oh a leaf, a sheet of paper, they said leaf. Miss James, may I get a leaf? I said, excuse me. May I get a liff, a leaf? I said, a leaf? And then, somebody, another student in the class, Miss James, he means a sheet of paper. I said, oh, okay, from now on, you’re going to say a sheet of paper, and not a leaf. And it went on like that. They had no problem, I had no problems correcting them. And, I never had any problems with correcting my students. No, never did.
VF: Now, you taught English. Did you teach literature, did you—
WJ: Oh yes, I, you know, I, both of them were in the same, you know, so what I did was English, grammar, and from there, and, and you know, English grammar was like, I don’t know something that even when I went over to Fort Johnson, English grammar was something that was like put on the back burner. Most of the time was concentrating on literature. But that was not my thing. I felt that they needed grammar as well as, because they needed grammar for writing and for speaking, and so I concentrated on grammar and literature. But most people concentrated on literature.
VF: From what I’m hearing and, and reading, Meggett seemed to have been a very nurturing environment for the students.
WJ: Oh, definitely. It most definitely was. My students will tell you right now, if you could talk with them or some of them, they would tell you that I would not allow them to say well I can’t do this, that or the other—that’s, that wasn’t, I wasn’t—my mother told us no, we are not going to say, I can’t. And I do the same thing with me along the way, I told my students we can’t, no we are not going to say it. I can’t do that, I can’t—yes, you can. And so, that’s what they grew up with and they talk about it right now. I felt that they had to do that. And I think it helped them along the way. Definitely. And I helped them along the way because, because of what they’ve become. Because of what they’ve done with their lives. That tells me that they paid attention to, you know, what we were saying, and used it as well. So, I’m very proud of all of them, of my students. I was the chairperson of the English Department. And of course, we all got together. What we did not understand, the teachers I’m saying, we helped each other, you know, because some people were just like me, did not know what, what a student meant, when he said leaf, so we had meetings and so forth, as I said, I was the chairperson of the English Department.
VF: And I understand you have your Master’s degree? Did you have a Master’s degree at the time?
WJ: You said—
VF: Your, your education—
WJ: Okay, oh, my—okay. There was no doubt in my home that we were going to spend time going to renew our certificates, teaching certificate, during the summer, or whatever, my mother always said, told us, we are not waste, going, not going to waste time like that, we are going to go on and get master’s degrees. And that’s what we all did, went on and got master’s degrees, and instead of going to summer school, you know, to renew our certificates, we went to summer school to work on our master’s degree. So within two or three summers, we all had master’s degrees. So that’s when we were transferred to Fort Johnson High School. I, there were two of us, with a man’s whose name was Mr. McCray [phonetic]. He and I were the only teachers over at Fort Johnson with master’s degrees.
VF: Wow. Let’s, let’s talk about that. So, when did you learn that Meshem Greg, I’m sorry—
WJ: Gresham Meggett—
VF: Yeah, Gresham Meggett, thank you, was closing? When did you, when did you get this news? How was the community informed?
WJ: We were so upset. Because we got the information about the closing during the summer, after we had closed school, you know, for the summer, and we were all out there, waiting for the next year to come, and we got the message that the school, the Gresham Meggett, was no longer going to be in existence, and we were going to be transferred to another school. We knew Fort Johnson was being built, but we had no idea that we were going to be the ones to go there. Ones to go there, you know, help make it an integrated school, you see. So when we heard about it, a lot of people wanted to get out and march because we did not know anything about it. I was very upset, myself, and I’m sure other teachers were as well, were upset, because the, the, the relationship that we had with our students, certainly if we knew that we were going to another school, we would have gotten them together and would have tried to encourage them to do the best that you can in this new setting. You know that you can do it, and we, we will, we would have encouraged them to no end to continue what they were doing and do even better. But you know what? They really didn’t have, they had enough of that within them that, and I guess we had helped them with, and their parents, that we didn’t have that to worry about, but we, we did as teachers. Because if we had known that we were going, the school was going to closed, we would have gotten our students together, we would have, you know, encouraged them to do even better than they were doing at Gresham Meggett. And they were doing the best there, you see, and, but we didn’t have that opportunity to do that. And we were very upset as teachers, very much upset. I’m going to tell you, let me give you something to laugh about. We went over there, I was the only English teacher from Gresham Meggett, and Mr. McCray was the only Math teacher from Gresham Meggett, Miss Hamilton [phonetic] had just started teaching, and so she was, but she was the only teacher from Gresham Meggett who was in history, she taught History. And, so we went on and, and the school was not completed yet, you know. They had to do more completion and building and so forth on to the school to make it what they wanted it to be. The library was on the first floor there, and the library was not complete yet, but at the end of the library on, in that same hall, there was a part that they had not completed, but they could use it as a classroom. This room was right on the front hall, so that when people came in, they could see that, you know, at least school was integrated, you know because number one, I, there was a—the end of the last room in the library was one that I was placed in, it had a front, a glass front, glass front, and now that wasn’t going to be my classroom, but it was a part of the library, it had a glass front, and it was a place that I had to be in temporarily. And so I was in that class with the glass front. That was all right with me. But let me tell you what happened. At that time, I had a class of ninth grade English students, but they were, what do you call the top—
VF: AP? Advanced?
WJ: Advanced. That’s, that’s better. They were advanced ninth graders. And so I said okay great, I’ve taught all of the grades and so forth, it’s fine by me. And so, we went in, and I told them at the very beginning, at the very beginning, I said all right, what we’re going to do, the first thing we’re going to do, every day, we’re going to write at least—because I wanted to know where they were, their grammar, whether or not they could write and that kind of thing,—and so I said okay, every morning, until we, I feel that you are ready to go elsewhere, we will take about ten or fifteen minutes to write at least a one paragraph on a subject that I will give you to write about.
So they looked at me, and, so they started, and I think one of the first subjects I told them that they were going to write—I did it, because I just wanted to see what they were going to say, how knowledgeable they were, that kind of thing you know, we only do things like that to, to see where they are, you know, on this page and so forth. And so I said, all right, the first subject that we are going to use is, to err is human, to forgive divine. Well when I—and I wrote it on the board. So they, the students, ninth graders, started laughing. And I said, what’s wrong? And so they said, oh nothing, and they looked at each other and started laughing. And by the way, all these were little white kids. And I said, what is wrong? Oh, nothing, nothing, nothing. And they started, they were, they kept laughing.
So the next day they came in, and they started talking among themselves, you all guess what, momma said or daddy said that, it was the correct pronunciation of the word. So I heard them, you know as they were talking, and I said, correct what? Correct pronunciation of that word. I said, what word? They said to, they said it was supposed to be to air, we thought it was supposed to be air, to air is human, to forgive divine. I said well people have been saying that for years, I said don’t worry about it, people have been saying it for years, but that’s the incorrect pronunciation of that word. And they said well yeah, momma told me that or daddy told us that, so that’s why I told the other kids that. So I looked at him, I said, oh, you didn’t think I knew what I was doing or something? And that did, that happened many times. Many times, you know, I would give them a, a name something, or it was a different pronunciation, from I guess what they were accustomed to. And, but anything, anyway, things went well.
VF: So you, you left Meggett. You went to Fort Johnson—
WJ: Yes.
VF: You had a master’s degree—
WJ: Master.
VF: …you were chairman of your department—
WJ: Chair.
VF: …What happened at Fort Johnson? Where were you placed?
WJ: I was—
VF: Who was the chair of the department?
WJ: Just as I was [unintelligible] 0:25:10 just as I said, I had ninth graders, very first year and so forth, and placed with ninth graders. And, I mean, that didn’t bother me, I was a teacher, I and that’s, I’ve always been interested in teaching and I didn’t have to have a particular level. Some students, while I’m tutoring here, have been students who were placed in, placed in, classes where in people considered them as not knowing anything, you know, dummies like, excuse me I don’t like to use that word—
VF: Yeah, remedial courses or something.
WJ: Remedial, that’s right. And so, I didn’t, I never worried about that because I could teach any level of student. So I never worried about that, but anyway, ninth grade, and then as time went on, they realized that I knew what I was doing, and ended up teaching twelfth graders, eleven, twelfth graders, the rest of the time I was there.
VF: Now were you ever chair of the department at Fort Johnson?
WJ: No. No, never was the chair. Never was the chair. Right. And that didn’t bother me either. Because I was a teacher, and I didn’t have to be the chairperson of the department in order to do that. And, I knew what I was doing, and the principals, whenever we had to have an evaluation or something of that nature, they would come into the class and they would say, wow, I didn’t learn this when I was in school, what, you know this is the grammar part, I didn’t, I didn’t understand that because what I taught, I taught it this way, said there are certain, grammatical things that you should know, such as double negatives, such as, oh, something like that, I can’t remember all of those, but it, like, double negatives, or the use of, or improper use of certain words and things of that nature, and that’s what I taught them. I wish I had known that, I would have gotten some out to show you what I was talking about. But anyway, that’s what—And they, my students started, learning that, I’m talking about, I’m over at Fort Johnson now, they started, and when they went to college, this college English teacher would ask them, well where did you go to school? These are the kids that don’t know anything about double negatives and things of that nature, said where did you go so they said we went to Fort Johnson High School and we had a teacher named Miss James and she’s the only one who taught us that kind of a thing. The teacher said well we need a lot of other James’ because that’s what you all need to know.
VF: Hm-hmm. [affirmative] So the transition for your students.
WJ: Hm-hmm. [affirmative]
VF: Did you, did you see any difference when they, when they got to Fort Johnson, were they still blooming, were they still raising their hands to ask the questions? How was that transition for them?
WJ: We had to, I, I did, well yeah all three of us, because we would sometimes get together and, and talk about the students and what they were doing and so forth. We did not have the opportunity to encourage them and let them see that. You have knowledge of certain things and you must use that regardless to where you go, you know. And so, mine that I, my students that I had, I encouraged them to do that, and they did it. Because they knew that, I, I was always serious about education, and I would always tell them this is what you have to do, this is what you should not do, and that kind of thing, and of course, they knew that when they came to me, this is what they had to do and I told them, so not only with me, but with other teachers as well. And what happened is we would tell them, don’t feel neglected if you hold your hand up and you’re not called on, don’t feel neglected, you know, if you have your hand up, you must know the answer. You know, a lot of kids, oh, she, I had my hand up and she didn’t call on me. Well, see what I did to my students, I go if you knew the answer and you had your hand up and you were not called on, that’s all right. Because you might not have been able to show that in that class, but later in life, you will be able to show it. So that’s what, that’s how I, I handled that. Yeah. And, I guess I’ll say Mr. McCray and Miss Hamilton did the same thing.
The sad part about Miss Hamilton was—you see Mr. McCray and I were experienced teachers. I had a master’s degree as I said, and Mr. McCray I’m not sure, yeah, I think he did, but Miss Hamilton did not. And we tried to do as much as we possibly could since we did not have the opportunity to encourage the children, and tell them what to expect in going into a situation like that. We took that opportunity when, like lunch time or something like that. The students would come to us and they would, you know, tell us what happened in class or something of that nature, and we encouraged them, that’s okay, you know, you have this for nine months. And then, after that, you’re going to somebody else, to another school where other kids may be. So that’s how we handled that. That lasts only—and right now, with my students that have children, I tell them right now, you only have nine months there, you can do that. And they believe that, and they started doing it. Yeah. So anyway, that’s how that was.
VF: Did you notice any difference when you, when you went to Fort Johnson? Maybe the books or the curriculum? Was there a big difference between what you had to work with at Meggett and what you had to work with at Fort Johnson?
WJ: Books. Well you know, when we were at Meggett, we used books that were given to us to the best of our knowledge to teach the children, and we, while we were getting our master’s degrees, and so forth like that, Mr. McCray and I, we were taught certain things not about black and white or you know that kind of thing, it was education, that’s what we focused on, education. And so when we saw the books at Fort Johnson, to me, I don’t remember, ever focusing, putting a lot of focus on what was in that book, [unintelligible] 0:33:34 that kind of thing. If we, if that happened, I really didn’t pay that much attention to it. I was there to teach school regardless to who was in the book or what color we were or what, I was there to teach. And, so that’s what I did.
VF: What’s a, a fond memory, at Meggett—what’s a fond memory at Meggett, and a fond memory at Fort Johnson?
WJ: For, okay, at Meggett, our students were students who wanted an education. They knew how important it was, it didn’t matter whether or not you came from an educated family, your education would be in that, in school, about, you were taught by persons who had been taught, you know that kind of thing. So because of that, they focused on definitely becoming educated, definitely intelligence.
That, that was I think, I think that was a difference in Fort Johnson and Gresham Meggett. Our, the students at Gresham Meggett, were students who respected teachers, they wanted an education, they spent the time, they didn’t spend time on other things, but just on education. The majority of them were the ones that I had, that, and the ones that I knew that were around there.
For instance, there was a young man, and he was a football player. And of course, you know, they’re always put a whole lot of emphasis on football and that kind of thing, and he was, he was in my class his senior year. And when I was a chairperson of the department, I said one thing that we would do each year, and that is have an English Fair. And what we did, at that time, we allowed students to make posters and so forth, and we would line them, you know put them on the walls, and all down the hallway and so forth, to let others see what we were doing and that kind of thing, and thank you and that’s our job. Well this young man who was a football player, we called him Mitch, I don’t know whether we’re supposed to give names or not, but you know what, he would love to hear his name being called so that’s all right, Mitch, but anyway he was a football player, and he had beautiful handwriting, I have never seen a young man with the beautiful handwriting like that. And he helped me every step of the way. He and another one of his friends, there were two football players, and they helped me with everything, and so they thought that they were going to get away with a lot of things because they were helping me. So we met the Saturday before the display, you know, was on, before everything was going to be opened up for people to see.
And so, Mitch is the one who did all of the writing of the captions that we needed and all of that, he had beautiful handwriting, oh. So, when we were, had music in there, had food, and we were eating, a little snack you know, because I, I said well if they’re going to help me then I have to help them a little bit, so this is what we did. And so while we were doing that, I said okay, you persons were here, I’m going to check you off as far as, but you have to bring your project to me here, you know, I’m going to be sitting right here at the desk. And so everyone else who’s helping brought their project to me so that I could check them off, except Mitch and the other young man. So I asked them they had helped me, oh wow, I said okay this is beautiful, I really love it. This is wonderful, we are really going to have something to show the school on Monday. This was on a Saturday. I said, all right now you, but I don’t have your project yet, and I don’t have yours yet. And they started looking at one another. Where’s your project? These are two boys now. This is how boys were at that time, and, and girls were too I think in some situations. And this, well where’s your project? Well, I don’t have a project. The other boy said well I don’t have a project either. So I said, okay, did I understand you to say you don’t have a project? Yeah ma’am, well we helped you Miss James, I said listen, let me tell you something, Monday is the deadline for the project. If you don’t have your project on Monday, you fail.
Well, they didn’t believe that. After they had helped me so much, you know, and put everything on the walls and all of the beautiful writing and all of that with the captions and stuff, but we helped you Miss James. I said listen, you’re here for an education, not to put posters on the walls, you were helping me, so therefore, you must have your project, I want to see what you think is very important, I want to see how you well you understand it and so forth, so I said you must have it here Monday.
They came in Monday, no project. So, I, do you think I argued with them or told them off or that kind of thing? No, I didn’t do that. I told them that the project was, you know, due, it was a part of their grade, and so that, hey, that’s the way that I did my teaching. I told you, and now you have got to pay attention, you have got to put the emphasis on that, I put it on that, so you got to do it too. So, when they got their report cards, when they got their report cards, they had Fs and they were, these two football players were so upset, they didn’t know what in the world to do. I sat there and I was like, yeah I said, well I warned you, I told you that if you didn’t have your project, because that was a major part of your grade, and wow they were angry for days. But you know what, that was a lesson, and especially for Mitch. He was a fantastic football player. And I don’t know whether he could play the next semester or not after he got that F, and especially in English, but he never forgot that, and right now whenever he sees students that I am teaching my, my little students that I tutor, he does this from the time, that time, from the time that he got out of college until, he still does it. You all do what this lady told you to do, because if you don’t, you’re going to fail.
I remember when I was at Fort Johnson, and somebody knocked on the door, and this time, and you know what, I’m jumping from one thing to another, that was one of the best lessons Mitch has ever had, because he, he sit down to other, well, teachers in way, to other students that he come into, that he comes in contact with, that I teach. He will tell them, do what she says to do, because, he says, number one, I was angry about it, but that helped me in my life, he said, because I would have expected people to give me, give me wherever I went, and I’m glad that she stopped me right then and there and I was angry, but that was a lesson for me. He became a part of SLED, what else, he played professional football with the law enforcement part. Oh he was, he went high in that. It was simply, and he told me it was simply because I did not expect people to give me, I knew that I had to get out there and do my own thing. And, this is what it is. And he does this right now, and he’s, I call him the old man. Listen, the poor, I call him, you’re an old man now. Yes ma’am. And he calls me every week. A week does not pass that he does not call me.
And a lot of my children, black and white, stop by here, and talk with me, Miss James how are you doing, I was just passing by and I couldn’t pass without—I came back Saturday from my daughter in Virginia, and I was, I have to use, sometimes a wheelchair, so I thought well you know if I do have to have it, then I will, my daughter will order it for me. So I was in a wheelchair when I came back to Charleston. And, so this man was helping me, and he had helped a lady before me, but he, he, he thought that he was finished with her and so he took me through baggage. And then he had to go and help the other lady. So I said, oh, that’s all right, that’s fine, I’ll wait here. While I was sitting there, this young lady came up and oh she was just kissing me on this, this was Saturday, this is a couple of days ago. It was just, she was just kissing me on my side of my face, and said oh Miss James, Miss James, I haven’t seen you in ages, I just don’t know what—and I turned around and I said, I didn’t recognize her at first. She was a white girl. She was kissing me. And everybody was just looking, say what, what is that girl doing. But we had a lovely time, we were just hugging each other because I recognized her face, you know, and so forth. But this was so long ago, this is when we first went over to Fort Johnson, and she was one of Fort Johnson, the students that I had.
And she says, Miss James, I have never forgotten you. You were the person that I, you know, paid attention to the most. And right now, I think of you all the time. And she, I had sayings that I used to use, and like, is like one’s attitude with his blah blah blah blah, you know, and so she said I remember those, those sayings that you had, that you had on the wall, and she said one at that particular, that was Saturday past, a couple of days ago, and she was just kissing me on my side, and you know what she did. She said what are you sitting here for? I said well this young man, he said oh, she said oh that’s who he sent me over here for, to help. And she said, okay, come on let’s go. I said what are you going to do? I’m going to get your bags and help you to the car. I said my bags, I said my bags, I said my bags are heavy. She said that’s all right, I can get them. She went over to the baggage, and you know how the, they have those circle things that she got my bags off that, took me out to the car, and put the bags in the car. If I never speak another word, this is what she did. And she was just kissing me all along the way, on this side, this kissing. When we, I, I got ready to get in the car, she helped me in the car, kissed me before she closed the door, and said, I said well you know where I live, right? She said yes ma’am. I said well come by to see me sometime. She said I certainly will. I’m going to do that Miss James, because before I used to, she’s gotten, as she got older, you know, she had other things to do, but she would stop by after I found out who she was, but she said she was coming, and that was Saturday as I said. She said she was coming over to visit me. My students do this all the time.
VF: Hm-hmm. [affirmative]
WJ: Great students. They do that all of the time. And I, I don’t like to say anything, because when I know, when I was on the school board, the people, the other people on the school board asked me do you have to say black and white? I said yeah, because that’s what it is, you know. We are black and white. Black right here, white right here, said what, what difference does it make, you know. And, and, and I said that to say this, that I’m saying a white girl came and was kissing me all over, you know what I mean, on my face and so forth. And I, I said, I thought that was just so good, because they knew that I was very serious about what I was doing with them. I did not [unintelligible] 0:48:17, and it paid off for them. Every one that I have been talking with and visit me, not recently, but all along the way, Miss James, I’ll never forget, never forget. That saying, and they would say one of the sayings that I used to say or one, one of the sayings I had on the wall, or whatever the case may be. That’s right. So I was very happy, and I’m very proud of my students, and I think that they are very proud to have been a part for, or for me to have been a part of their lives. I don’t think that I can think of any that have not really made something out of their lives.
VF: Hm-hmm. [affirmative]
WJ: That’s right.
VF: Would you say that the desegregation was a success and if so, in which ways?
WJ: Uh, generally, generally, do I think that?
VF: Yes, ma’am.
WJ: You know I think that it was good in some ways, but not too good in others simply because, and it, and this is going to be the case now, because people are different. How many little white girls going to come up to me and kiss me, how many out there? Let’s see if we had 20 out there, maybe 8 or 10 would come and kiss, and the rest of them would not have done it. And it’s because of the rearing that they’ve had. Some might have said, oh no, you would never do that to a black lady, why did you go and kiss her, as though she would become black herself. Oh, I shouldn’t be saying these kinds of things her, but anyway, that’s what I got from that and I’m telling you, you know, what I, am. I think that it was a help to some, and you know what I think? I think that it is getting even better now. I think the situation is getting better now. At first, it wasn’t that good. But I think it’s getting a little better now because you can see, and on my, my daughter’s job, I ask her all the time, I said, do you, do you have friends? Do you have people that you go out to lunch with during the day, and you know, and she names without any problem, yeah, so-and-so and this one, and I know so-and-so is either black or white, fine. So I think that it has helped in a lot, in a lot of ways.
My daughter, I think I told you, she is an electrical engineer, right yeah, and it’s not because she is that, it’s because people realize that I can do the same thing that you can do, you know. I can do the same thing that you, you can do. So, just give me the opportunity and I will do it. But you know what I think is happening, I think it’s been better, it has gotten better, but there’s still some people out there that cannot accept it. That’s my feeling that I have. There are still people out there who can—but not nearly as many people, so I think when we think about it, nothing stays the same, but you’re not going to find 100 percent of any group, of any, any, 100 percent, you’re not going to have that, so if we accept the fact that we’re not going to get 100 percent, I think our lives would be much better, go on with your life, and look at the other people then let them do what they want to do and you do what you want to do, and that’s it. And, but I think you need to focus on the fact that if it’s not getting you anywhere, and when I said that, I mean it’s not, are you, are you getting what you want out of life? Why, have you figured out why? Did this girl help you, did that girl help you, did this white girl help you? If that’s the case, what’s wrong, you know what I mean? So that’s, that’s the way that I think. I, I think I, if you listen to me, you see that I’m a little bit different from—because I, it doesn’t bother me. And that’s what I try to teach my daughter. And I think it has worked quite well with her.
VF: Is there anything else you’d like to add about your experience teaching at Fort Johnson or Meggett?
WJ: One of the best things that ever happened to me was to teach at Fort Johnson [unintelligible] 0:53:33, and you know the reason I’m saying this is that when I see my students out there, doctors and lawyers and this and that and the other, that makes me feel very good. I taught that kid, and look at where he is now, look at what she is, she’s doing now. One of my students right now, she says she’s my daughter. She lives in Columbia, and she has retired from a good job with DSS, and now she’s in real estate, and she’s doing much better in real estate than she did at DSS. But she is, and she’s not, and see the thing that I like, she’s not afraid to get out there and do what you want to do, do what you expect, do what people expect of you, do what your education has the direction it has pointed you in and you have gone in that direction. You know? I, I just think that it’s one of the best things that could have happened out there. I’m really good, I am really good. And I love it, and I pray for my students to do the same thing, even right now, all those children that I tutor, I point them in that direction as well.
VF: You showed us something here. The 50th class reunion?
WJ: Hm-hmm. [affirmative]
VF: You showed us this, the 50th class reunion? Oh this is a book—
WJ: It’s a—
VF: –from Meggett? Awesome. And the photographs?
WJ: Uh-huh [affirmative], of some of the students.
VF: Uh-huh. [affirmative]
WJ: Uh-huh [affirmative] And that’s what, and they sent me that, this has a, you know I told them [unintelligible] 0:55:21—
VF: I’m going to let you hold this.
WJ: Huh?
In addition, you need not worry because, commander cialis miamistonecrabs.com never stimulates erection if you have not thought of it. In 2015, the American Cancer Society estimated get viagra free over 220,000 men with prostate cancer. These conditions are also more prevalent in women, particularly those who have risk factors generic viagra online miamistonecrabs.com or who are diabetic. This discomfort can be felt after a heavy meal then there is much possibility that it will take a look at how online viagra view that the tablet helps to improve your overall performance.VF: I’m going to let you hold this.
WJ: Okay.
VF: So that we can.
WJ: Uh-huh. [affirmative] [unintelligible] 0:55:25
VF: [unintelligible] 0:55:26
WJ: And they believed in me, they would not— I was supposed to be on the program for this, but because my husband died, I wasn’t able to do it, but I was supposed to. And that, how long ago was that, oh my goodness. But they still wanted me to be, I said what, make a program, I hardly remember anything. No, no, no, Miss James, we must have, you have to do it. And not too long ago, a couple of years ago, the class of ’67, I don’t have anything, you know. Well I have some things they sent just like this—
VF: Hm-hmm. [affirmative]
WJ: …but I think I put them away or something so, but, because this was just the other day here, and I still had it out—
VF: Yes.
WJ: I said I was going to show you all this.
VF: And let’s see the cover of this book here so we can—oh yeah, that’s really nice. And they, they gave you this letter? I, would you like to read it or I can?
WJ: You can read it.
VF: Okay.
WJ: Help yourself. [unintelligible] 0:56:27
VF: Okay. So it says Dear Mrs. James, This is a gift for you. From W. Gresham Meggett High, High Class of 1967. We send this with love and appreciation for all that you have done for us. We would not have made it this far without you and the teachers at W. Gresham Meggett High School. You taught us discipline, perseverance, self-motivation, and these traits of life guided us along the way. The members of W. Gresham Meggett High class of 1967 thank you. And may God bless you and your family. Sincerely, the members of W.G.M. Class of ’67.
WJ: And when I, and when the others have their, you know, reunions and so forth like that, they always send me whatever they have. If I don’t get there, they will send me copies like this. This, and the letter. And whatever else the, there was the program. I, I don’t know whether I have it right here or not. The program, everything, they send. All with—And that’s why, I think, I said, you see, they had to be taught things like this. It wasn’t just something they just [unintelligible] 0:57:42 something like that, we had to teach them, you know. And, I’m not saying that I did it by myself, I’m not saying that, but I am saying that if you have an example of something and they, and they are still sticking with me, then I feel good as I must have done something pretty good for them. Must have. That’s right, you look like, when you do that you look like a girl, a young lady that I taught. You do.
VF: Uh-huh. [affirmative]
WJ: Yeah, so, that’s it.
VF: That’s good. Just a, maybe one other question about Fort Johnson. Your transition—
WJ: Hm-hmm. [affirmative]
VF: So, when you, you were not the chairman of the English department there. Who were you working under? Who was it?
WJ: At Fort Johnson?
VF: Yes, ma’am.
WJ: Of course, it wasn’t that I was the only English teacher, another English teacher.
VF: Okay, all right. Was she younger than you, or?
WJ: She [unintelligible] 0:58:41 now let me see. You know, we never talked about age or things like that. We never talked, but I think that—
VF: Master’s degree? Was she as qualified as you?
WJ: No, she didn’t have a Master’s degree. Nobody else had a Master’s degree until about four or five years later, then they started getting degrees. No, just Mr. McCray and I were the only ones over there who had, who had Master’s degrees.
VF: I would think that you must have been an inspiration. A black woman with a Master’s degree. You’re an inspiration to me.
WJ: Oh.
VF: You know, that, that to me, is wow.
WJ: Yeah, when teachers said, to interview one day, who, you know, and, and what happened is we weren’t people who were okay I’m going to Fort Johnson now. We weren’t teachers there who ignored each other or something, we talked. Because we were English teachers. You knew something perhaps that I didn’t know. They would send their students to me, all of the time, for grammar. Anything about grammar, oh they’d send them right to me. Oh yeah, yeah. But and we never talked about that, and, and I never felt that I was better because I knew, well. But anyway, what happened was, the, I’m trying to think, okay. I, I don’t know—
VF: Hm-hmm. [affirmative]
WJ: …I’m trying to think. Do you have another question?
VF: No, we’re good. Thank you for—
WJ: You have another question.
VF: …for your work.
WJ: I know, when I remember, we, we, we talked about things. I know one teacher came in one day and she said, guess what Willie, so I said what, and she said, well I did a, did a mess up job of something just now. I said what, what was it? So she said some of my students said that, she had some seniors also in English, and she said, I was just asking them were they going to college, and where they were going to college, and she said majority of them said that they were going to South Carolina State. So, I said, oh, what do you mean you messed up? Says, that was a good suggestion. Oh, no, no, that’s not what I did, she said I, I, no, you can’t go to South Carolina State, because that’s not a good school, no you can’t go to that, I’m telling you the truth, this is what you told me. No, no, no, you can’t go to South Carolina State because that’s not a good school, you need to go somewhere else because you are smart.
So I said, well, why are you consider the fact that you messed up? She said because I just felt that South Carolina State was not a good school. I said let me tell you something, honey, by this time we had more black teachers over there then, couple more, and the principal, and assistant principal and so forth. I said can I tell you something? I said all of the teachers over here that you know, black teachers, all the black principals or assistant principals, we all graduated from South Carolina State. She said, I can’t believe it, she said I cannot believe it, all of you graduated from South Carolina State. I said, yes, that’s right. So then she went to the head of the department, she said oh my God, she said I really messed up, and she, she said that she told her, and the head of the department said look, don’t worry about it, when Willie and the rest of them went to South Carolina State College, they said that was the top black college in the state, and that’s why you, that’s why they’re here right now, because it was the, the best black school, college. And she said, phew I feel a little bit better now. I said, oh, I could tell you some stories that happened that you wouldn’t believe, I’m serious. I said oh please, I said, you know the most important thing is, your ability to get to, [unintelligible] 1:03:31, oh I hope that doesn’t—
Jenna Tran: You’re good.
WJ: I hope that doesn’t go on there—but anyway, I said, the, the most important thing is helping the students, you know, educating them, helping them so they can help themselves. That’s what I, I’ve always thought about things like that. I, I don’t know why, I never—I, I, I just never thought of somebody being better than I am. My mother taught us that, all of us teachers, as I said. She taught us that. And so, we never felt that way. So that’s probably why it didn’t bother me if somebody said something like that. I said South Carolina State is where we went, that’s right. So, I, I just never. I, I guess I’ve not been the kind of person who focuses a lot on integration, all this stuff, I never focused on a lot on that, because I, I was more interested in educating my children, [unintelligible] 1:04:53 them, getting them out in the world so that they could be somebody, that because that’s what I was taught. So I didn’t focus a lot on things like that. Never did. And still don’t.
VF: Any words to new teachers out there in the world?
WJ: You know, recently, articles have come out in the newspaper about how our children are not doing as well as they should and they wonder whether or not they’re really being educated. You probably have not seen it, but a lot of articles have, have come out of the paper recently and have come out in South Carolina, the education, that they are not educating their children the way that they should. And one time I said you know what I need to do, I need to come out of retirement and go back. That’s what I said, to myself. I didn’t say it to anybody else, I said it to myself. I said, because I know that I can do better. I said, or maybe if I go back in the classroom, if I don’t do that, maybe I can get some of the younger teachers and give them some ideas of how to handle the situation or something of that nature. That’s, that’s what I’ve been thinking about ever since those articles came out. I’ve been thinking, and I said no, at your age, you think you’re going back to—I said you think you’re going back to teach, but I, I can. I do it here at my home, I, and my, and, oh, let me tell you, my students that are children, they, I get them out of special ed. I go, and, and I, I think, I, I just don’t feel threatened by anything like that. And tell them, tell the children’s parents, I said okay, you said the teacher put them in special ed, yes. Okay, well we’re going up and get them out. You think we can get him out ourselves? I said, of course.
I have been on the, what’s that, after I retired, I was on the school board here for four years, District 10 school board for four years, and I feel that I needed to spend more time with my children, but anyway, they—I decided that no, you do, don’t try to go back into the classroom, you know. Even though they are talking about the students and they’re not getting enough education, they are, and they’re—and see what I did also, I didn’t just focus on book learning, because I think the other type of learning that you have, the experiences and so forth, are the ones that are going to get you through, because that’s what I learned over the years, that I’ve got persons who used their education, but they used experience also. They were the ones who, you know, made something out of themselves, who experienced certain things and, they were the ones who were successful. And so, that’s what I would like to go back out there and tell, tell the students. But that is what something that I really considered recently, and that is going back into the classroom at my age. Because when I see the children come to me, and the things that they don’t have and they need, they are not being taught—I said, I can see why they’re saying the students are not educated. And, and, and I agree with them 100 percent. They are not being taught what they should be taught, educated the way that they should be educated.
I don’t think it’s going [unintelligible] 1:09:20 And I would tell anybody that, that I see, and I will go to the newspaper and tell them this is the way that I feel because—let, let me tell you, I’m, and I’m going back to, started not to do it, but I’m going back and tell you this. The parents ask me, you think you can get my son out of special ed? Yes. Oh, I said you just get an appointment with your doctor, not, with your teacher, and I’ll go with you. Oh, [unintelligible] 1:09:53 I said yes. I have done this, I bet, more than 25 times with my students. They would get, the, the parents would get the appointment, and they’d pick me up and we’d go to the school. Several things have happened, and I, and I can still smile a lot, and yet, and real upset, that’s just the way that I am I guess. And the way that I was taught. And, and I see that I can get ahead better doing this.
I remember I went to one class, and the teacher, the teacher walked in, and she spoke with, well this happened in a lot of cases, spoke with the mother, or the mother and father, and didn’t even ask well who do you have with you, you know, or something. And, they’d stop and started talking, so I said excuse me, never tell you who I am. And, I would tell them that—one time I’ll never forget, I laughed about this myself. I said, I, I retired after 35 years, and I said, perhaps that’s longer than you’ve been on this earth. 25, 35 years. I said, that’s probably longer than you’ve been on this—but let me tell you about me. And I told about that I was on the school board, over here, oh over here, yes. And then when I started telling them who I was and they stopped talking about the student and started talking about me.
I said well wait a minute, no that’s not why I’m here, I’m here to get this child out of special ed. Oh, no, no he can’t get out of special ed. Yes, he can. I said, the mother and father signed him in, and we are here to sign him out. Well, I need to sign, go and send for somebody else. Well, send for whoever you need, but we are not leaving here until we sign this student out. You know? And that’s what we—and I did that on numerous occasions. I remember once, this boy—and he’s a college graduate right now, but he was in second grade. I’m serious, second grade, and I, and the teacher put him in special ed because he couldn’t read something, or couldn’t pronounce a word or something of this nature, so the parents said, Miss James I don’t know what we going to, I said you’re going, first thing you’re going to do is you’re going to get him out of special ed, and the next thing you’re going to do is I’ll go to him and, and you know, see that he gets what he needs.
So, we went up to the school and, I, the, the teacher, no the principal, tried to ignore me except that time because they knew that I was on the school board, and so we went there and so we, I told them that we came there to get the young man out of special ed. So anyway, and so I was doing all the talking. So they said, well wait a minute, I thought, somebody trying to be smart, I thought that was the mother and that was the father, because I was doing all the talking. I said, yeah, you’re right. You’re absolutely right, that’s the mother and this is the father, but I’m the tutor. And I’m up here to get this young man out. And I’m going to show you that he is not a special ed kid. I said, so we need to sign him out, and that’s what we are going to do before we leave here. And, we signed him out and I started tutoring him.
The mother called me from her job, this is about two weeks after we signed him out. She called him, called me, from, to tell me that, from her job, that the teacher just called her and said the young man had made the highest score in the class on a test. And I said, what? She said, yes Miss James, she says I had to call and tell you because the teacher just called and told me. And from that point on, he was the, one of the smartest children in that class. And now he’s a college graduate, he’s doing very well. Suppose say he had that label on him, special education. Now, do you think he would have been out of college, and doing well? No. And it’s, and I have done that, I’ve gotten, and especially boys, I’ve gotten them out of special ed. How, how do you think that you’re going to get them out? I’m up here to help the parents, I said and they are here to sign the paper, and so that’s why I’m here, to see that they sign the paper, and do the right thing. Well they were so shocked, they didn’t know what in the world to do. But that’s what I did, and I’ve done that, that’s why I stay with tutoring children. And my friends, are you still doing that? Yes, I am. Miss James, you, you can be, and these are friends, Willie, you can be going out with us to lunch, or going to the movie with us, or something—I don’t have time for that, I’ve got to teach my children. That’s what I told, they’re all like, oh Lord, you can’t get rid of teaching. I said as long as they need me, I’m going to be there, as long as I can help them. And anyways, and, and, and the way that my students are doing now, yeah, I’ll be here forever. I’ll be here until, until my last days, if they do as well as they’re doing now. I’m serious. I am very very serious. That’s right. I’m talking to a [unintelligible] 1:16:13—
VF: Thank you so much.
WJ: People say, you talk so much Miss James. I say yes I do because I have so much to say. You know. But anyway, if that’s enough that’s good.
VF: Thank you. Thank you very much.
WJ: If that’s enough for the interview, I’m talking about. But anyway, I enjoyed being at Fort Johnson also—
VF: Hm-hmm. [affirmative]
WJ: …because that was a lesson also. It wasn’t to me, because I didn’t go through a whole lot of negative things. I, I did not. And I’ll have to be very frank with you, I did not go through and was simply because I think people recognize the fact that I probably knew what I was doing or something, parents came there and we would talk. And I think, there was a saying about, some people can’t look others in the eyes, you know what I mean—
VF: Hmm. [affirmative]
WJ: …and talk. Well I wasn’t like that because my mother taught us, look people in the eyes and tell them what you have to say or whatever the case may be and so that’s what we did, my, my sisters and brothers. That’s what we did. So, anyway, I’ve never had any problems. You know what, when I was at Fort Johnson High School, parents would come up, and the principal would call me in. Miss James, so-and-so is down here, or Mrs. so-and-so or Mr. and Mrs. down, I said okay I’ll be around, right there in a minute. And what I did when I, at all, all times, you know so, I had, all of my students had folders. You see, that’s why I can’t go without a folder, because they had—and I put all of their papers in there, so that I have proof of what they did and what. And I’ll never forget, this man came and it was graduation time. I didn’t even know who he was, I had never seen him before, and he came because his son was in, a senior, and it, it was time for graduation. And he wasn’t going to graduate because he hadn’t done his work.
The father came and he had on his bedroom shoes or something, and I just came up here because we have all of our invitations out and the family is coming, and this and that, and, here, I saw his report card and he is failing English. I said, yes. So he’s, well what, what am I going to do, I’ve set the family up. I said, I don’t know. I don’t know what you’re going to do, I said, because it’s my first time seeing you. If I never speak another—this is my first time seeing you, I said, if you had come earlier, this is not the, this isn’t the first time that he failed, he’s been failing all along. And the principal was sitting right there, and this, and the principal was sort of smiling to himself. And so, I said, I’ve never seen you before. I said, you should have been up here earlier so that you would know that your son was failing, and you could have told him something to do, or you could have talked with me, or I could have given him some special—but he did not do anything and I don’t have anywhere that I can go in and get some grades to pull out of a bag or something, and add to that. I said, I don’t have that, so your son has to repeat this grade. Well, I, all the things are out in the family, and I said I’m sorry I don’t have, that’s the only, when I tried to help him, he, during the time that he was supposed to get the help, he didn’t want it. He didn’t do it. So now there’s nothing else that I can say.
And the principal laughed and then he said, okay Miss James, well I’ve got another meeting that I have to attend right now, so this meet, this meeting is, oh well I’m going to let it, Mr. whatever his name is decide what he’s going to do because just as you said, you don’t have a bag to pull it—I said that’s exactly right. I’m serious. That’s the, that’s the kind of person—and anybody, my students white or black, they know that this is the kind of person that I am. I don’t give grades, you have to make it. How, because if you go, if I give you because, oh she’s cute, oh oh she’s, uh-uh [negative] no, no, no, no, no, I didn’t do that. And, because when you got there in the world, and you don’t know what, let’s say, a noun is, you don’t know that the difference between singular and plural, you know things like that, and you’re, what’s, I, see I’m going to hold myself responsible, responsible for that. Because I, I will say I did not make him do that. Another, let me tell you another thing that happened. I know you all have to go, but I’m going to do this anyway.
The English teachers at Fort Johnson were on the same hall, you know, and some over here, some over here in the rooms and so forth. So this, the, the principal asked me this time, Miss James, would you take this class, right here, these children who are in special ed, and I said sure. But I don’t think I want you to do that. I said, of course, I said I don’t mind, I love teaching. So anyway, he said, I said, just go on, you go on, and I’m going to teach these children. It was special ed. And so I taught them, and they, they started doing so well and I, I mean they did better than some of the general students. And so, when the next year came in, and I, and they passed, and the next kid, next year came in, and the teacher right next to me, English teacher right next to me, got the same students that I had, but my, in special ed, I recommended them for general. And so, when she, the teacher next to me, saw that these children over there, she said Miss James, she left her class to come to me, Miss James, I said yes, I thought these children were in special ed last year. I said they were. I said, but I did not teach them that way. I said, I don’t, I don’t believe in teaching special ed, unless I’m sure. And I said, these children were not special ed, and so I taught them on a general level. Oh, and I taught, listen, oh this is funny. I told, I told, her I said okay look, the, the students, I’m going back to the teacher, what the teacher said, but I, I said okay, let me tell you all something, I’m talking to the students now. I said, this may, this has a label, this class has a label on it because it’s special ed, but I’m not going to teach you all special ed. You are going to be taught on a general level.
One student, after they left the class, one student went down to the principal and told the principal that I said I wasn’t going to teach them on the special ed level, I was going to teach the on a general level. The teacher said, the principal said, you don’t want to do that? No, because I’m special ed. All right, so back to the teacher, so the next year that this teacher had all of the students that I had, and she said, Miss James is there, is there, is there a mistake here? I said what do you mean a mistake, mistake? So she said, they’ve got these children in the general English class. I said, oh yeah, that’s where they’re supposed to be. But I thought last year you had them in special ed? I said, I did. [unintelligible] 1:24:33 I said but I taught them and I told them that I was going to teach them on a general level. And I said, don’t you see what has happened to them? You see? And so she’s like, I, I just can’t believe it. And so then the next time they’re taking tests and so forth, they made higher grades than the students who had been in general. She had a class of general, and, well all of them are general at that time, but, some of the children had been general the year before, and some of them were with me. That’s right. Do you need me?
WJ: So anyway, she said, that’s what she said. She said, well I just can’t believe, and the students that I taught that were special ed, this is at Fort Johnson High School, now, special ed they did better than, and I taught them on the general level, they did better than the students who were general the year, this year before. Oh, I could tell you some things, I tell you. But I, I love teaching. I love, and I still love helping people. It’s just like right now, my family says, you have company all of the time. You are not tired? At your age? I said no, I’m not. No, I’m not. I’m not. And I probably will never ever be tired of people. I love people, students as well as grown-ups, you know, younger children and stuff, and I’ll always, always come help them, as much as I possibly can. And that’s why I thought about going back into the classroom at my age. You all have not said anything about it. So, when you all get together, get the, get my age, okay? That’s right. Oh, teaching was really something for me. It was really [unintelligible] 1:26:51 ,but anyway. I would, you know, when we first went over to Fort Johnson, we were accustomed to walking in the office, good morning, and they, over at, over at Gresham Meggett, everybody, good morning, how are you Miss James, what did you do this weekend, blah, blah, we would just be talking, you know, things like that.
But when I went, when I first went to Fort Johnson, we walked in there, and they’d say, good morning, and people looking as though, looking at us as though we were crazy. They said nothing. So we said wait a minute, what’s wrong here? We are accustomed to talking and conversation, and people saying hello. And no one, oh for the longest, a good while, over that entire year, people did not say, but do you think we got all upset and started cussing and carrying on, because they didn’t do it? No. I went on down to my classroom and smiled to myself. You know, because that, that was good, that was what you were supposed to do, but it wasn’t anything that made you, you know, where you work, or made you happy or sad, well it didn’t do it for me. So that was some, one thing that we talked about a lot, but we just laughed about it. We didn’t get very upset about it, you know. Somebody’s not speaking—
VF: Yeah.
WJ: We’d go, good morning, people looked and turned their head and go on the other way. That still did not bother me, I, well, I’m stupid I guess. And my mother taught us that, I think, that you don’t need, you don’t need a good morning or a hello or so forth to survive. That’s, you know, you don’t need it. You don’t need it. So that’s, what it was, that’s what it was. So anyway, my students, and as I told you, majority of them from Gresham Meggett are just like that. And if they were to write a letter, the letter would include a lot of the things that they said here. Because that’s what they were taught. And that’s why they were able to write a letter like this—
VF: Yeah.
WJ: …because that’s what they were taught, you know, this is how they were treated.
VF: Hm-hmm. [affirmative]
WJ: I was not only the chairperson of the English department, I was over plays, dramatic club, plays, and the children would just run to me when they heard that we were having a play, Miss James can I be in the play? That’s right. Because we had some wonderful—and then one, I said last thing before, and then, before we left Gresham Meggett, and a lot of people don’t believe this now, but before we left W. Gresham Meggett, we started getting student teachers, well a few, and I had a young man, from, I think it was from College of Charleston, and he was my student teacher. Don’t forget his name, Fox.
VF: Fox.
WJ: Last name is Fox.
JT: Terry Fox.
WJ: Huh?
JT: Terry Fox. We spoke with him. We did an interview.
WJ: You spoke with him?
JT: Yeah, he did an interview for us. Yeah.
WJ: Well. How, how did you find him?
JT: I’m not entirely sure. I think he was, he was recommended—
WJ: Hm-hmm. [affirmative]
JT: …and he was more than happy to come down.
WJ: Hm-hmm. [affirmative]
JT: …and, and speak with us when we were here in, in March.
WJ: Oh. It was Fox.
JT: So, he was…
WJ: He was my student teacher. And he would say how in the world did you get a student teacher? And, so, he was a white guy, right?
JT: Hm-hmm. [affirmative]
WJ: And people, and you know, and teachers say, how did you get him as a student teacher? I said don’t ask me, all I know is that he was brought down to my class. And said this is your student teacher, the principal. That’s right. And he was very, he came out here. We had a play once, and he, and I said okay you’re going to help me with this. Yes, ma’am, [unintelligible] 1:31:45 I’d be glad to help you with it. And I said okay, let’s get going. And so, after one night, after the play, I think it was my birthday, and they, they knew it was my birthday, April 1st—
VF: Yeah.
WJ: Yeah, that’s not hard to remember. And, you know what they did? I, I was home that day, and I was waiting for my husband to come home. And, I had on a housecoat or something, and the doorbell rang. And, I went to the door, I said I have my housecoat on, I went to the right here, and we got in this house, and I opened the door, and it’s the students who were in the play and Mr. Fox. Happy Birthday—
VF: Oh.
WJ: …they started singing, and they had food with them, something to drink, you know, sodas and stuff like that.
VF: Hm-hmm. [affirmative]
WJ: And they came in and we had a marvelous time, and he had, and in a robe, I’ll never forget that. And he looked at me, and he just fell out laughing, oh, we had, we had a good time. And I said, well, I couldn’t even, I was speechless. But he was the first one in the door, and they were singing out loud, I mean really out loud. I said wow, this is really something else. He was good, he was a good, young man. I helped him along the way, and he was very good and very, you know. I, I just knew that he was going to be somebody because of, you know, the way that he acted. Because, you know, there are just certain things that I, I knew and I saw in him. And so that was that, I could tell you some of the stories, but I’m not, that’s it, I’m not—
VF: Okay. Well we thank you and appreciate you, and thank you for your time and your service.
WJ: Yeah.
VF: And all the lives you have touched.
WJ: Huh?
VF: All the lives that you have touched.
WJ: Oh yeah, yeah. You would be surprised at the number that I have not even told you about. Oh I’ve got the, I, somebody told me where was this, recently, just, just, oh that was when I was in Virginia. We were talking, oh no, no, I’m trying to think of who it was. No, Miss James, I want you to write a book. Who was that? Somebody recently. We were talk, I, I, no I says you got to have a book. Oh, I know who it was. You know who it was? Do you know Linda? Linda Johnson? The council woman from here who was trying to get this going—
JT: Oh-oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, Miss Johnson.
WJ: Yeah, Anna Johnson.
VF: Uh-huh. [affirmative] Yes, Anna.
WJ: I taught her too. And she has, oh God, she talks about, Miss James, if it weren’t for you, I don’t know what I would have done—
VF: Hm-hmm. [affirmative]
WJ: People did not believe in me. She said, can you imagine me, I said of course I can imagine you at being a council, a councilwoman. And, so anyway, she said, this is fine, oh yeah we were talking about this, she said this is fine. I want you to have the interview, Miss James, you must have the interview. They cannot have it if they [unintelligible] 1:35:06 God, and then so she said but you know what I want you to do? Miss James, you have so much experience with people, with situations and stuff, you need to write a book. Well I had thought about writing a book before anyway, but so many things happened, you know in our life and so, I didn’t have—I have some stuff written down right now in a book, that’s why I carry a book like this all the time—
VF: Okay.
WJ: …because I have some stuff written down, subjects and so forth—
VF: Hm-hmm. [affirmative]
WJ: …that I would put in a book if I did. But she told me this recently when we were talking on the telephone when I was in Alexandria, Virginia, with my daughter, and she called me and we were talking, Anna, and she said all this is fine, she said, but I want you to write a book. I’m serious. That’s right. So I said, well I’ve been thinking about it, Anna, she said I want to see, and I tell them, you know I tell them all the time, I said, you know what, after you all have gotten grown, you think that you can just tell, boss, tell me what to do. I’m talking, ever since you all have gotten grown, you all just declare that you can just tell me anything that you want me to do, anything that I should be doing. My daughter is the same way. She says, I said wait a minute who’s the boss in here, momma, [unintelligible] 1:36:29 you’re the boss, but I am the strong boss because you’re going to do this, you’re going to do that, and you’re going to do the other. Well, I, you know what, I trust them simply because I taught them—
VF: Right, right.
WJ: Is that something? I trust them—
VF: Yeah.
WJ: …because I taught them. And they always come up with something good. I am just so proud of my students and, I, I never worried about my, my daughter. Oh no, I never worried about her [unintelligible] 1:36:59, please let me tell you this. But you all have to go, you, you can go—
JT: Oh no, no. It’s, as long as you like to tell stories.
WJ: [unintelligible] 1:37:06 what?
JT: As long as you want to tell stories, you tell stories.
WJ: My, my daughter, I had her tested when she was in, she was in, what, kindergarten. And so, she, I had her tested for two schools here, and one was a Catholic school. She passed both of her 90 something, high 90s, and so we were trying to decide which one she was going to go to, because my husband was a teacher and I was, and we were not able to pick her up this, that, and another, and so we said well we just doing it, and so she, what happened was, she, we decided that she would go to the Catholic school, okay. So, throughout the entire education thing she got, until she going to really from high school, she went to Catholic school. And it was an experience that didn’t, no that I’m not even going into that one, but it has another one, but anyhow she graduated from Bishop England. I don’t know whether they call it Bishop England now, but Bishop England High School, and went throughout, from first grade through twelfth. And, in twelfth grade, you know, I don’t know whether you all have experiences or not, but in high school in particular, there are some teachers that, oh no, you got to, no you got to do this for that, her though, she’s tough—
VF: She’s tough.
WJ: Oh yeah, she, yeah, oh, she’s tough, you got to do this, and so that was one, there was one of the teachers over at Bishop England that was tough, an English teacher, and so they were doing the research paper and so was I. I had seniors, we were doing a research paper—
VF: Hm-hmm. [affirmative]
WJ: …at the same time. And, Tia [phonetic] came home one time, and she brought a grade home with some cards, research cards that they had to do. And so, a C. I think it was a C or C minus or something. I said, Tia, what is this? I said, this is the first time you’ve ever had a C. From first through twelfth grade here.
VF: Hm-hmm. [affirmative]
WJ: Momma, I don’t know what she’s talking about, blah, blah. I said all right, get me an appointment. Momma, please don’t go out there and tell her, because she’s one of those tough ladies that, she might fail me. I said oh, please, I don’t want to hear anything like that. I said, just get me an appointment. So I got, she got the appointment and I went there to, to speak with her. So, I, I went to the door. And she was a tough lady. She went, I went to the door, and she was at her desk doing something. And she ignored me at first. And so, I said hello. Oh, hello. What is it? What you want? I said, I came to talk with you about my daughter. Oh, what’s her name? So I told her. Well, what about her? I said, well she came home with a C minus, a C or something, you know, on some cards that she was doing, and I said and I want to know why.
So she said, because she didn’t do the work. I said, oh yes she did. I said yes she did. I said now let me tell you something about me. I said, it is ironical that both of us are doing the same, teaching the same thing at the same time. And I said I wouldn’t dare allow my child to come out here not doing the right thing. And I’m teaching the same thing as you are. I said, oh no. She got, well, I said I want to know what she did wrong, because, and so she said, oh by the way, did I hear you say you were a teacher? I said, yes. I said, and you also heard me say that we both were doing the research paper at the same time. And she, you could see her—
VF: Hm-hmm. [affirmative]
WJ: … going down So I said, so I want to know what my daughter, I would never, ever [unintelligible] 1:41:24—where do you teach? I said Fort Johnson High School. And, and at that time, people, who taught at, at Fort Johnson High School, and especially if you were black, you said, Fort Johnson, I said yes that’s where I am. Oh, well, and what did you say you’re teaching? I said, English, twelfth grade English, and we are doing the same thing, teaching the same thing now, and that is a research paper, and I said that’s enough of that because I’ve told you all of this. Now, I want to know what’s wrong with my child’s cards. And she could not tell me. And that was the last C she had. Now I knew she wasn’t going to get an A because teachers, some teachers don’t like for you to question them, but from that point on, she got B plusses.
VF: B plusses, couldn’t get her that A, huh?
WJ: I knew she wasn’t going to get an A. As she was, I knew she wasn’t. But I, oh I could tell you so many experiences that I’ve had. Like, but you know, it still does not destroy anything in me, still. It didn’t, and he, and, and I don’t think there ever was anything that happened and destroyed me or made me feel different or bad, or low or high, or whatever the case may be. That’s just the kind of person I am. That’s right. That’s the kind I am.
VF: Thank you.
WJ: Well, this is very good.
VF: Appreciate it.
