This interview was conducted on behalf of Charleston County as part of the project: Stories from Historic African American Communities: A Journey to Equal Education, W. Gresham Meggett High School, James Island, SC. Charleston County was awarded a grant from the Department of Interior and National Park Service (NPS) in 2018 to conduct this oral history project aims to provide insight into the lives of African American students during desegregation. The project is structured by the NPS research framework: Civil Rights in America: A Framework for Identifying Significant Sites (2002, rev. 2008).
This interview was conducted on February 23, 2019 at W. Gresham Meggett School (Septima P. Clark Academy), James Island, Charleston County, South Carolina. Mary Beth Reed was the interviewer; Terri Gillett was the technical assistant.
MBR: Hi, this is Mary Beth Reed with New South Associates. It’s February 23rd and I have the good luck to interview Wilburn Gilliard at the W. Gresham Meggett School. I think I hit all the points on that way, in case we-
WG: That’s correct.
MBR: …do something there. Basically, the interview, Mr. Gilliard, has four parts to it. The first one is great. It’s where I get to know you and you tell me a little bit about your background. Where you were born, your parents’ names. If you could give me some idea of your childhood, if it was on James Island, your connection.
WG: Okay. I was born on April 5, 1946 at Roper Hospital. I’m a native James Islander. My parent’s name is Samuel C. Gilliard. And my mother’s name is Eloise Richardson Gilliard.
MBR: Richardson. It’s a common name out here.
WG: Right.
MBR: Can I ask you what your dad did for a living?
WG: He did carpenter work. A combination of different things. He was somewhat of a jack of all trades in some things, but at the time you do what you have to do to survive. But most of the work that he did was carpenter. He spent most of his time working at Detyens Shipyard on calking and some other things related to the ships. I’ve never been there, so I’m not familiar with the details of it.
MBR: I got you. How about your mom?
WG: My mother was a domestic worker and in later years, she became a – call it nurses aid, which is a CNA nowadays. So that’s what she did.
MBR: Did you come from a big family?
WG: No. My family’s large. I mean it’s small, not large. It’s just two of us. I have one sister. I’m the oldest and I’m about a year and a half older than she is. So it was just the two of us.
MBR: All right. Well, can I ask you, did your parents – what schools did they attend? And to what grade, I guess? And where?
WG: They attended Society Corner School, which is located here on James Island on Secessionville Road. Well, this was an elementary school. My dad attended that, so did my mother. And she later attended the Adult Education Program that was administered here at W. Gresham Meggett. And she eventually got her high school diploma.
MBR: Neat.
WG: And after she decided to enroll, we encouraged her to continue. And a lot of us have done well. My sister and I were in college.
MBR: When she did that?
WG: Yes.
MBR: Oh, that’s terrific. Is the house that you grew up in, is that still standing?
WG: No. Unfortunately it’s not.
MBR: It’s not. And that was on what street or road?
WG: Osborn Road.
MBR: Okay. All right. Did you live with extended family around you?
WG: We lived in a little small community consisting of relatives. Next door to us was my grandmother. My grandparents initially, but my granddad died in early ’50s. I think I was like first grade at the time when he died. And behind her was an uncle. And then a little farther back was some other relatives. So it was just a little small area consisting of about six houses. So we were a little bit isolated from the mainstream.
MBR: Someone told me there are different parts of James Island. You know, like Cut Bridge. I apologize. I don’t remember them all. What part would that have been in?
WG: We’re kind of attached to the Bees Field area. That’s an area that the other interviewer, David Richardson is from. So we’re fitfully called Behind God’s Back. There’s a little dirt road about a quarter of a mile or longer to get back there where we were. So we were a little isolated from the other folks.
MBR: So it’s Bees?
WG: Bees Field. Something called Bees Field.
MBR: Bee Field. Okay.
WG: It should be Bees Field.
MBR: All right. All right.
WG: Yes. And that’s near Sol Legare all agreed. Yes.
MBR: Okay. That helps.
WG: Yeah. It’s on Folly Road just before approaching Sol Legare.
MBR: So you spent your childhood growing up with your extended family around you. Was there an emphasis in your family towards education or not?
WG: Yes. It definitely was the emphasis on the education from the time I could remember. Like I said, I grew up – at least the way I remember it, I guess learning the A, B, C’s and being threatened with – I kind of remember not wanting to do it, and I would be threatened that my dad would be in the house soon. He’s outside doing some work and that I needed to know it by the time he got in or something. I remember those days. So, yes. Education was stressed. Yes. Definitely.
MBR: So where did you go to elementary school?
WG: I attended Society Corner in the beginning. Society Corner Elementary School.
MBR: So where your parents went to school.
WG: Where my parents, which was located on Secessionville Road. I started first grade there. January, I believe. This was first grade in 1952. ’52 and ’53 school year. January of ’53 we moved from Society Corner here to Gresham Meggett. So I was part of the original – well, my original school year started at Gresham Meggett, so to speak. So my first grade year started here, so I attended school here for 11 out of the 12 years.
MBR: Oh, my goodness.
WG: Yes.
MBR: You managed that just– the timing?
WG: Right. Fifth grade was done at Kings Highway Elementary. When I reached my fifth grade year, they moved us all out of Gresham Meggett into Kings Highway for that year, then they closed the school on Sol Legare and brought the kids here. They had to move some of us back here my sixth-grade year. Those were on the west side of Folly Road that came back. And those on the east side of Folly Road stayed at Kings Highway.
MBR: Okay. School boards. Yeah. Yeah.
WG: Right. Right. So a lot of folks are not familiar with what happened when the new change took place, but I kind of remember all those detailed things. So in a sense, I started school here and I finished here.
MBR: Right. Right. With that one hiatus, really.
WG: Right. Correct.
MBR: So you started at Society Corner and then came here.
WG: Correct.
MBR: Do you remember your first impressions of coming here? I mean, it was a modern school.
WG: No. Well, it was a brand new school. We came in and one of the things that we had to do was to unpack the desks. They were still packed in cartons with the packaging material wrapped around it. Yes.
MBR: So they just delivered the desks and left them there?
WG: That’s what it appeared. And this wing was the only wing that was completed. The wing next to us, they were working on that at the time. So all the kids from Kings Highway moved here. And the first graduating class was the class of 1957. Those prior to that, they went to Burke for high school. So that group, I guess those were what? Sixth grade at the time they came here and they finished out the school year here, then they went on to Burke.
MBR: That’s pretty interesting that you had so many years here, you know?
WG: Yes. Okay? Because initially, it was an elementary school, then they finished the wing next door. So we moved there. By the time I got to sixth grade, that wing was completed, so that was – it was called junior high wing at the time.
MBR: At that point? Okay.
WG: Right. And then later they built the red brick wing, which was called the senior high wing. The cafeteria was not built in the beginning. That’s red brick also. So it was just the block building here.
MBR: Just this one here. Right.
WG: One of the classrooms in here, they modified it, but there were two classrooms was caught in a wall between the classes. So they were opened up to make like an auditorium.
MBR: Oh, that’s what they did initially to make the auditorium space?
WG: Right.
MBR: Okay.
WG: Opened up two classrooms and it would have-
MBR: We called them assemblies or – yes.
WG: Yeah. Assembly, chapel, whatever. I’m not sure what name it was called. I remember attending and different things as a first grader and remember the milk being distributed in the bottle. Little miniature milk bottles. The traditional milk bottle shape. They were in the little small miniature bottle. I guess, whatever. Then later they came up with the carton. The milk cartons, yes.
MBR: I had forgotten about the little milk bottle.
WG: Well, that was unique. I haven’t seen it since.
MBR: No. Did you get chocolate milk, too?
WG: Yes, we did.
MBR: Okay. That was always a big thing.
WG: That was my favorite. That was my favorite. Yes.
MBR: That kind of made your day if you were able to get there in time to get – yeah. Well, I guess then, if you came into school and you had to unpack desks, was there an awareness that there was a difference between African American schools and white schools?
WG: No, no, no.
MBR: Or that there was a disparity?
WG: We weren’t even aware of the other schools. There weren’t any in this area. This was basically the only school in the area, so this is all we knew about. There weren’t anything else here. And the difference between the two schools we learned as we got older. You know, first grade I remember my first grade class we had first and second graders in the same classroom. So the teacher had to teach both grades. It was an adventure just to be in school, and we left out of an older building to come into a new building. So that was interesting in itself just doing that. So a lot of things community-wise or country-wise, statewide, we weren’t aware of. We were kids.
MBR: Got you. But it was a new school. Do you remember it looking modern? The fact that it is a modern building for its time.
WG: It was very modern in comparison to where we came from. I spoke to my aunt and I asked her to sign up to be interviewed. She was mentioning to me once about the building at Society Corner had leaky roofs and they had to put buckets around the classroom to catch the water and so forth. And she said it was a big difference to come from that to this. So that was a major transformation then.
MBR: Right. We talked one time about where the African American schools were before Meggett. So it was Society Corners. Was there a Three Trees?
WG: Yes. There was Three Tree off of Fort Johnson Road. Also the Sol Legare School. And they had – what became Murray-Lasaine. I’m not quite sure what the names were originally. But they had Cut Bridge. It’s near the Cut Bridge, which is on Riverland Drive and Camp Road near the James Island County Park now.
MBR: So when Meggett was established, did these folks come here? Or most of them?
WG: They came, like, middle school. Okay? They were in the feeder schools to the middle school here. Well, we did have a middle school, so to speak, as they do now, but Gresham Meggett had from seventh grade on through 12th grade. Okay. Initially, it was elementary schools, then the elementary middle, then they had the high school, then they took the elementary out of here. Okay? And they built Baxter-Patrick Elementary School. Baxter-Patrick was named after two elementary principals. Mann Baxter was the principal at Society Corner Elementary and Patrick was the principal at Sol Legare School. So with them being combined-
MBR: Relationships.
WG: Right. So they gave the school that name, Baxter-Patrick. And that’s on Grimball Road here also on the other side of the horseshoe.
MBR: A lot of geography. It’s good. Yeah. Yeah.
WG: Yes. Yes. Yes.
MBR: So let’s talk about Gresham Meggett. We can talk about it first as an elementary school. It’s kind of hard to pull on your elementary school, your thoughts. You do remember having to unpack desks. Are there other things that you remember? Do you remember what the daily round was on elementary school? Did you have one teacher all day? Or did you have several?
WG: All the elementary classes was one teacher.
MBR: Just one. One teacher. Okay. So switching classes, that sort of thing, is not going to happen until later, right?
WG: Correct.
MBR: Right. Okay. So let’s move to the high school, when you started high school here. You definitely knew the territory because you had been here.
WG: Oh, yes. Yes. Yes.
MBR: Were there others? I guess there were others in your class. You were with a group that had been here and would be here for those 11 years, right?
WG: Yes.
MBR: It must have made you kind of close?
WG: Right. I mean, like most of the folks from elementary. So we went from elementary to middle school to high school together. And so you apparently knew everybody. Like a community type of feeling. So that’s how it works. Yes.
MBR: How far did you have to travel to come here? And by what means?
WG: Initially, I had to walk. As a first grader, second grader, we walked to school. The distance, I would assume – well, by automobile it’s several miles. We took the back shortcuts. About two miles.
MBR: Did you have someone to show you the way? Or did other people in the extended family also go at the same time?
WG: Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. You always had older kids to follow along with and learn the way to go. You roam around the area so you know where you live and other things in relationship to that. Yeah.
MBR: Hopefully it shortened the walk.
WG: Right. Now, when I first went to Society Corner, I have an aunt who’s 90, is older than I am. I used to tag behind her, because I was born in the month of April, and my mother tried to get me enrolled in earlier and they would not allow it. So I had to wait until I was six years old before I could be enrolled. So they said I can still come, attend, but I could not be enrolled.
MBR: You’re not matriculated. Yeah. Yeah.
WG: Right.
MBR: So that means you’re really smart the next year probably. So if you had to talk about Meggett, would you talk about having a culture or a place that really nurtured you?
WG: Yes. There was definitely culture. It was definitely nurturing. I enjoyed school. I looked forward to having perfect attendance. Yes. I enjoyed school.
MBR: You were one of those kids?
WG: Yes. I mean, wasn’t nothing to do at home but work.
MBR: No, I get you. School was a good alternative.
WG: Right. I mean, it was nothing else there to do, so school, I looked forward to going to school. Yes. I enjoyed school. Yes. I had a number of perfect attendance certificates. If I was out sick for some reason, I was upset because that blew my perfect attendance for the year. So, yes.
MBR: That’s great.
WG: So, yes. Definitely a culture here. And I mean, this was it. That’s all we knew. I mean, nothing else. Nothing to compare it to. Only thing we knew of the white school that we received used books from the white schools. And that’s all we knew about them. Okay? And so we had nothing to compare to. And like I said, early on we had to walk to school. And we later got a bus. We had later maybe one bus that took care of the whole island. I remember us being packed into the school bus. Okay? And I mean, it was neat we didn’t have to walk, but we still had to walk a good distance to go to the bus stop. And then years later we received additional buses. But I remember us being packed on those buses, because that was it. And I mean, we couldn’t complain about it because that was better than walking. So everything was a step up. Like I said, we had nothing to compare it to other than where we came from. And a lot of folks don’t understand that concept, but it was better than what we had, so we appreciated it at the time.
MBR: I hear you. Well, when you came to high school, obviously this worked. Was there an academic track? Was there different courses of education that you could pick?
WG: Yes. We had college prep and just the general academics. I picked the college prep, but I kind of mixed it up.
MBR: Did you want to go to college? Or was that just-
WG: Yes. I wanted to go. My intention was to go. My dream was to go. My problem was how was I going to go? And as I got into high school, reality set in in terms of will I be able to go? My parents didn’t have the money to send me. So I kind of deviated a little bit from the college prep course. I took ag was one of the courses out of the general track and brick masonry. And I took brick masonry because I heard they made a lot of money. Back then, jobs was limited for black males in particular. And so being a brick mason, I felt that at least I can make a living doing that. So I took that. So that’s where, as I said, I deviated a little bit so I took that in addition to the other college prep courses I was taking.
MBR: Were you involved in any athletics, or extracurricular, or that sort of thing? Like what did they offer, or what did kids here enjoy most?
WG: We were very limited. Only thing we had athletically was football. We didn’t have a basketball I think. The basketball at one point, and then it was disbanded. I don’t know the reason. And so football was it. I participated in football, I lettered in football. I enjoyed that. It was an honor to be a football player. There wasn’t anything else to look forward to, so we didn’t have much, but we didn’t moan about it. We appreciated what we did have and we went on from there.
MBR: I see. What schools did you play? I mean, what were your regional-
WG: We were a single A school. So other single A schools in the community, which were the equalization schools. We played Haut Gap, which is on Johns Island. Played Wallace High School, which was West Ashley, off of Highway 61. We played Laing, which was up on Mt. Pleasant. We played Lincoln, which is McClellanville.
MBR: That’s a pretty good regional coverage. Yeah.
WG: Right. So that’s the area. They were all small black schools. So it was classified as single A, so that was our category.
MBR: They gave you like that network.
WG: Right.
MBR: In terms of seeing the other schools, that would be one outlet through athletics.
WG: Right. Now, as you – what do they call it now? I don’t know. Conference or whatever, if you advance in that, then you play other schools outside the area. They kept moving up to the state level. So they had a system. So we would play schools St. Helena and Beaufort or what’s that? St. Helena Island– so you have Beaufort there. I remember we played Robert Smalls and St. Matthews. No, no. Robert Smalls should be in that area also. I’m sorry. There was another school that St. Matthews we played. John Ford. I’m sorry. John Ford and St. Matthews. We played Ruffin. It’s in Ruffin, South Carolina. I remember lower state championship we played a school in Columbia. I can’t remember the name now.
MBR: So you travel and – I mean, that’s one way of seeing-
WG: Yes. Yes.
MBR: I mean, it’s like a way to get around.
WG: Right. Those who were top of the conference here, they went to the next level and next – you know, we played like I said, up to the lower state, then the state. You know, who became state champion. And we had a very good football team. Always did. And like I said earlier, that’s the only sport we had.
MBR: You poured a lot into it, huh?
WG: No, you know. There’s some time near the end of the football season we did not have 22 guys that have a decent scrimmage. You know, folks are out for injuries and other reasons. So we made do with what we had.
MBR: You just got there and play.
WG: Right. So we got there and we played. We put our heart into it. We were serious about it.
MBR: Did you play as an upper classman, a junior or senior or younger?
WG: I started at sophomore. Sophomore, junior, senior year.
MBR: Oh, all three? Okay. Wow. So your folks – actually all parents. How involved were they with your education here at Meggett?
WG: They were involved. They attended PTA meetings. My dad didn’t attend a lot of the football games, but some of the chores I was responsible of doing after school, he put my – to play football, he had to take over and do some of those things. Now, we did farming. We had animals like chickens, hogs, cow, horse, did plowing. Someone had to take in those animals in the morning and in the evening. As I got older, that became my job. So we had to make adjustments to deal with those things in the evening when I got home so that I could come to football practice.
MBR: Kind of enabled you to be able to do that. Yeah.
WG: Right. So I would say that was very supportive.
MBR: Yes. I think so too. We’re just going to applaud them right here actually.
WG: Yes. And sometimes I look back on some things we did in high school I was surprised at. I remember the first couple of summers, had some small jobs. One of them, like my summer after my junior year in high school, I worked at Woodstock, which made crates for drinks. Bottled drinks. And located in North Charleston. So I had to get up in the morning, catch a ride to get there. And the guy I caught the ride with, he lived on Johns Island and he’s coming on Maybank Highway, so Folly Road and Maybank, which is at the bridge– the Cut Bridge– I mean the, Wappoo Bridge. I had to catch a ride with him. There were three of us. Two other guys, because their mother was one of the owners of the company. And that’s a good distance from here. And I’m not sure how you came, but you came on the connector or perhaps the Wappoo Bridge.
MBR: Yeah.
WG: But it’s named the Wappoo Bridge. So my dad had to take me to that stop in the morning to catch the ride. So I had the cows and the horses and other stuff that I needed to do in the morning, so he had to help also with that. And then he had to go to work. I certainly think back about what he did. At the time, I didn’t appreciate it, but now I can appreciate some of the things. It was a strain on him, but I was working there for the summer. Well, I did two summers. So yes.
MBR: Did you ever think about taking up farming?
WG: No.
MBR: You want to elaborate on that?
WG: Well, I mean, a lot of folks did farming and that’s all they did. You know, from the time I can remember, I did farming. Okay? I mean, my life’s in farming and did the hoeing, the planting the seed, the harvesting, everything is evolved. We also ran a roadside vegetable stand in the summer. Yeah. So that was my job. I did that, my sister and I. We did all these things together. So after I was old enough, I would plow the fields, do whatever with the horse, with a plow. And my mother, my dad, they would come out and help after they got home from work. So it was a family affair, so to speak.
MBR: It would have to be.
WG: Right.
MBR: Did your sister go to school here, too?
WG: Yes, she did.
MBR: She did? Did she finish here?
For a man, it is a sensitive topic to talk about, and is often not discussed and therefore not side effects viagra treated. It may affect the groin, the genitals and the area behind the scrotum. order generic cialis But some common services offered by all of them include generic cialis prices garlic, goat weed, ginkgo biloba, and arginine. Could oral impotence drugs help an impotent viagra ordering man with their sex drive.WG: Yes, she did.
MBR: Okay.
WG: She was away for one year also. She did 11 years here. Now, you mentioned about the farming, and the reason I laughed, because the last thing I wanted to do was farming. And I always tell folks farming encouraged me – I said there have to be a better way to make a living than this. And so that encouraged me to go to college. That was one of the catalysts. Definitely a catalyst. And farming’s a big business now. Things have changed. Things have changed tremendously in farming. But back then, I mean, that’s all they knew. I mean, I’ve worked in the hot sun plowing and doing all kinds of things we did. So, yes.
MBR: It’s hard work.
WG: It was. Picking okra. Back then there was no rubber gloves. Okra, when they first stopped picking it, it was fine. You could do it bare handed. But as it got older, the little stuff would get into your fingers and it hurts. You used socks, but that didn’t work after a while. The socks became wet and soaked, but you had to pick the okras. And okra grows very rapidly. So three times a week you picked the okra. Monday, Wednesday, Friday. And you’ve got a look that says, “Why?” Because they grew. I mean, like Monday you leave them on the bush about that long, and by Wednesday, it was here. It grew rapidly.
MBR: Wow.
WG: Yes.
MBR: I’ve never grown okra.
WG: Okay. So, yes.
MBR: Okay. So you decided not to be a farmer.
WG: But I have a garden nowadays.
MBR: What goes around comes around.
WG: Yeah. I’ve got a lot of plants in it.
MBR: Have you ever grown okra in it?
WG: Oh, yes. I’ve grown okra, corn, tomatoes, string beans, all that stuff. Yes.
MBR: Well, you got me on that one. Going to school here, it really afforded an opportunity for you and your sister, obviously.
WG: Yes. Yes.
MBR: And when you say college, did you decide where you wanted to go to school? And you tried the brick laying thing as a possibility, an alternative, as something to do with my hands, you know, kind of thing.
WG: That was a back up.
MBR: So how did it all work out in your choices there?
WG: To be honest, I did not know a lot about colleges. I mean, we did not have the exposure to schools. There were kids ahead of us who went to college, but didn’t see them afterwards. They went, and a lot of them, they – through the summer month they were out of state working or somewhere. So we didn’t see them. So our knowledge of college then was very limited. Only thing we knew was like teachers would make comments about college. My impression of college was that you spend most of your time studying in the books. I mean, that’s what was drilled to us. I remember the summer before going as time approached to go to school, I was very upset until I ran into a guy with the class ahead of me. He was away for the summer. He came home, I ran into him one night. I talked to him for about ten, 15 minutes or so, and he just told me some things and it was such a relief. The weight just lifted off my shoulders, because I had a better picture of what to expect. Prior to that, I had no idea of what to expect. Now, my senior year, I managed – the choir was invited. We had an outstanding choir. I was not on the choir.
MBR: Okay.
WG: And they were invited to South Carolina State to perform. So I maneuvered and was able to go with the choir to go to the campus and see what a college campus looked like. That was my first and only visit to a college campus prior to my going there. So college was something I wanted to do, but I didn’t know a lot about college, other than it was a means to an end. And how I got interested talking to – well, I was interested, but trying to figure out how I was going to go, talked to the guidance counselor. My senior year was the first year we had a guidance counselor.
MBR: Here?
WG: Here at Gresham Meggett.
MBR: Okay.
WG: We didn’t have any. Okay? And so talked to the guidance counselor. She was telling me about you need to consider going to school. And the question was how? How can I go? So she started to tell me about there are things like student loans, work scholarships and some other things. God, I had no idea what was involved. So she laid it all out. And I really appreciate what she did, because she was a big help in that area for me. Encouraged me to go.
MBR: What was her name? Do you remember?
WG: Her name was Ms. Adams.
MBR: Okay.
WG: And like I said, that was her first year here. First year we had a guidance counselor. And when you sit and think back on some things, you’re very grateful to some people that had some affect on your life early on that you didn’t really realize early on what roles they played. And so I begin to think about her. I think she’s deceased now. She wasn’t here forever. She spent a few years and she moved on somewhere. But I’m very grateful, the help she gave me, because I managed to get a – Charleston County offered a scholarship at the time. They were small, but now I look back, it was huge. But it was like – I’m trying to remember. I think it was 1200 dollars at the time.
MBR: I don’t know how well that took you through the year.
WG: Yeah. I was trying to remember how it worked. I can’t remember now the breakdown.
MBR: That’s all right. But you applied for a scholarship?
WG: Yes. Yes.
MBR: And got it.
WG: Yes. And then I applied for a student loan and applied for work scholarship. So between the three, I was able to go to school. And the work scholarship was a big help and my academic scholarship. After my first semester, I canceled the student loan because like someone at work told me I was getting too much money back, so he said they would cancel the job that I had, because they decided I didn’t need it. So anyway, I canceled the student loan after the first semester. So I made it through school that way and working a side job whenever I could. So that’s what I did.
MBR: That worked out great. Yeah. So adviser. She made a difference in your life. Are there any other teachers that you remember or people that helped?
WG: Oh, yes. Most of my teachers, we had some very good teachers. One of them, my homeroom teacher, my math teacher, she was here today and I didn’t get a chance to talk to her or at least say hi.
MBR: What was her name?
WG: Gwendolyn Manigault. She was also my homeroom teacher. Very good math teacher. I had two very good math teachers here. She was one of them and before her was Ms. Nema Bennett. Now, Ms. Bennett was my homeroom teacher. They were good friends. And she went out on maternity leave, and then she didn’t return here after that. She went to another school. But Ms. Manigault took over and those two ladies – no one after that taught me math like they did. I minored in math.
MBR: Oh, you did?
WG: Yes. I minored in math. But no one else can touch those two in math as far as I’m concerned. Yes.
MBR: That’s good. How involved were your parents with your education here? Was there a PTA?
WG: Yes.
MBR: And were they part of that? Or was it mostly – you talk about your father supporting you in a very real way. Did your mom, was she part of the PTA?
WG: I think she participated in the PTA mostly. Most of the PTA, I think they’re structured differently. I’m not sure, because I never attended any. But I know she attended PTA meetings. They were always involved. I mean, my dad, even though he didn’t come to meetings, he was still involved because he made comments about things or whatever. So they were involved.
MBR: So they knew the teachers here?
WG: Oh, yes. Yes. Definitely. Yes.
MBR: Okay. We talked a little bit before that here – I’m trying to say. How much did you know about what was going on outside this community during the 1960’s? You know, you’re there during the Civil Rights Movement, really. And this school was an equalization school and it gave great benefit. But then there was the ultimate goal of integration and having truly equal schools at some point. And how much were you aware of all that or not?
WG: We weren’t aware a whole lot, because a lot of the integration push came after we got out of school. After I got out of school.
MBR: That makes sense.
WG: Okay? Now, I left here in 1964. Graduated in 1964. So a lot of the things were just brewing at that time. I think University of South Carolina was just integrated, because I remember Ms. Adams, guidance counselor, asked me if I wanted to apply there. And I said, “No.” I didn’t know anything about any colleges. And it was going to be a struggle for me to go to school and it was a rough time to get to Orangeburg and it would be harder to get to Columbia. And I was telling someone about that one day, like I found out about some of these other schools out of state, North Carolina, Tennessee, other places, Florida that folks went to, folks from downtown. And I’m saying, “Wow. You know, it’s amazing that kids went to these schools all over the place.” And I caught hell just trying to get to Orangeburg. My dad had to hire someone to take me to school. The car he had, he didn’t trust it up to Orangeburg.
MBR: To get you there?
WG: Yeah. So when I think back on it, there’s a lot involved. You ask about they involved in the education. He went out of his way and got someone and paid them to took me to school. I mean, he went also, but he didn’t feel like his vehicle could have–
MBR: Got you there safe. Yeah. Yeah.
WG: So, yes. So I mean, that’s involvement, that’s support, as far as I’m concerned. Yes.
MBR: No, I agree. I agree.
WG: Yes.
MBR: Did your sister also go on to college?
WG: Yes, she did. We both went to South Carolina State, because I told them, you know, see if they can take care of her. I had me covered. I can handle me. So concentrate on her. So at that time, Dad was making a little bit more money than he had been, so they were able to help her out and she got a job working also at school.
MBR: Just made it work. And when you left college, what did you end up doing?
WG: I went into the Army.
MBR: Okay.
WG: Okay? I finished up and my degree was in engineering. I went into the Army. At that time, the draft board, they were very busy. They were at the height of the Vietnam War. My intention when I went to school was to go into ROTC. I wasn’t able to do that. I passed the written exam, but I couldn’t pass the physical. Okay? Well the draft board attitude at that time was if you were out of school, well, likely you were drafted. If you were in college and you drop out for a semester, you have to notify your draft board. And if you notify your draft board, you got a call. You got drafted. So some folks took a chance and stayed out. I mean, they were out for a semester and they came back, and the draft board drafted them. They found that they were out, and they got drafted anyway in the middle of the semester. My attitude was they’re going to have to come and get me, because the money I paid, I wasn’t going to waste it, because they didn’t care. And being African American, you know the story that most of us fought the war.
MBR: Yes.
WG: We got drafted at a higher percentage rate than others. So I didn’t go into advanced corps. I did two years of ROTC. I didn’t do the advanced corps. My senior year, it was okay for me physically to go into the Army then or in the Military I’ll say. But I was turned down because my blood pressure was elevated. So that’s why I couldn’t get into advanced ROTC. At the end of my senior year, only thing I had to do was say, “I do.” Raise my right hand and say, “I do.” I was processed already before I got out of school. Okay? So we have what’s called, while I was at school, a two S deferment. Which is student deferment to defer from being drafted while you were in school. Once you graduated, the deferment expired.
MBR: Right.
WG: So after I got out, I went looking for a job and folks said, “How do you classify?” And I’m saying, “I’m unclassified right now.” They said, “Come back in two years. You know you’re going to be drafted.” That was the culture. That was the culture at the time. So I was out of school for like a month and I just went and say, “I do.” Because that was already processing. So I went into the Army and – well, with the intention of going to Officer Candidate School. I assigned a special program, supposed to do that. This gave me a two-year obligation. The contract was that if I did not make it through Officer Candidate School, I was only obligated for two years. If I made it through, well, you know, it would be longer. I signed up for – three categories you had to sign up for. Senior corps, engineering corps and one had to be combat, which was [indistinct 00:46:59]. So after I did my basic and AIT, I waited for class day to go to one of those three.
I never got it. They said the class was full. Kept being – I was held over by three months. And finally I got a class day to go to infantry OCS. That was not one of my selections or choice I was given. And my choice was take it or leave it. If I take it, I leave it. If I leave it, I was heading to Vietnam. My basic training, my advanced individual training, or AIT, was combat engineering. Okay? So I didn’t get the engineering class, I didn’t get the signal call class, and artillery.
So anyway, I was shipped to Vietnam. I didn’t make it through OCS. Long story behind that. But I wanted to, but some folks saw differently.
MBR: On the way.
WG: So went to Vietnam as a private first class as a combat engineer. Got there, went through in country training, and then was assigned to the artillery battery. The whole group of us. We were all combat engineers and they stuck us in artillery battery. So everybody like, “What are we doing here? We’re not trained to do this.” Two of us of the group was selected to go into the fire direction center. That’s DC. It’s like the headquarters and we’re the one that does all the computing of the data, to fuel to the guns for the fire missions. So they started training us and anyway, I made it through that. The other guy, he did not make it. Some of the training was similar to my math background and so forth, so it was fine. You had to compute the data for a fire mission. So they had all the data from a real fire mission and they just run us through the exercise after they taught us how to do it. You had to make a slide rule and some other stuff. And you had to compute the azimuth, the distance, the type of charge for the rounds you find, all that. It’s a number of things was involved. So anyway, I ended up in fire direction center. I had to learn that, so I learned that OJT. And that was fun. That was better than working on the guns.
MBR: Well, yeah.
WG: Because we were in a building. We didn’t have to work outside.
MBR: How long were you in Vietnam?
WG: I did only 11 months there, because my two years was up. So when I left I was sergeant E-5 and I was chief of section of the fire direction center. And most people do not go from an E-3 to – I went from E-3, E-4 and E-5 in less than a year. So I spent only 11 months there. So when I came home from Vietnam, I was technically out of the service since I finished my time there. My two years was up. Go back to the contract I mentioned. So that’s what I did.
MBR: Oh, boy.
WG: Yes.
MBR: And then did you work as an engineer after that?
WG: Yes. I came home and spent a week here in Charleston, and I moved to New York. I needed time to readjust. The whole first year of service I was in training, so I was part of what’s going on – like folks talk about all the good time they have in the Military, and go out here and party. I didn’t experience any of those things. And I went from training to Vietnam. So the two year isolation and I had to adjust to a lot of stuff that was going on, came back and they just instituted the Monday holidays. That was strange and different and a lot of other things. You had to catch up to what’s going on, get back in to focus, get my mind settled.
MBR: So you spent time in New York? When did you come home? When did you come back to James Island?
WG: I came from Vietnam in August of 1970, and I spent one week in Charleston, and I just needed my time.
MBR: Yeah. Downtime. Yeah.
WG: Right. So I went there. I worked at Alexander, which was a department store for a little while. I got married at the end of December. There is nothing else to do. My wife was in Rhode Island at the time.
MBR: Okay.
WG: I met her at South Carolina State. She was two years behind me, so-
MBR: But she was from-
WG: No, no. She was from Charleston. So that was commute to Rhode Island. Providence, Rhode Island from New York. You know, see her, back and forth. Anyway, we got married the end of December and she went back to Rhode Island…., got married, she went back to Rhode Island, I went back to New York until near the end of January I moved to Rhode Island officially. I moved there. And there I started working with Raytheon as an engineer at Raytheon in submarine signal division. And later I left Raytheon, did work for the Navy, submarines. They built the sonar system for the submarine. Where they do the pinging, the ponging. You know, determine what’s in the area. I started production control, then I went to industrial engineering. And I think they took a chance and decided to hire me. They put me in a management training program, worked there for like six months, and then they moved on. And at the end of the second six months my industrial engineering, my boss asked me to stay. He said, “They don’t know where they’re going to send you next anyway.” And so I stayed with them, and so I was there for like about three years. And then I left and went to work for Owens Corning Fiberglass. I was the engineer.
And when I was first hired, we couldn’t produce enough. We made fiberglass yarn. They call it the yarn because there was bobbins and all that, but that was the basic for a whole lot of things. They use it in other things. You know, some of it they pounded into like a powdery– to put in– filling of the teeth. They had what’s called conductive roving. It puts graphite on the yarn and use as the spark plug cables in your car. Vehicles.
MBR: Okay. Sure. Well, you’ve had a varied career, though.
WG: Yeah. Then some was used like angel hair for Christmas trees. That’s fiberglass.
MBR: Yeah.
WG: And some was– we chopped it in two strands about two and a half, three inches of top strand, and they put it in fiberglass to reinforce like chairs and hats. And fiberglass is part of a whole lot of things.
MBR: It’s ubiquitous, a lot. Yeah. Yeah. We don’t always know that.
WG: Right.
MBR: Well, how did you end up back here?
WG: Okay. When I first started with Owens Corning Fiberglass, we couldn’t produce enough. 18 months later I was on the street along with several other people who worked there almost 30 years. The market just fell out and so forth. I worked as internal auditor with Bostitch Tech Farm for six or eight months. In the meantime, I was going to school working on an MBA. So I finished that. I had my last class Thursday night, Friday went to work and was told I was going to be let go. It was fine. I mean, there was nothing to hold me there. I was ready to come back home then. At that point, I was ready to come home.
MBR: Okay.
WG: And the classes were holding me there. That was it.
MBR: You finished your MBA, allowed that – okay.
WG: So I was done. Now I could go home. I had became homesick. I had never been homesick before. But I went to college, I went in the Military, I went to Australia while in the Military. I was never homesick. I got homesick in Rhode Island. I couldn’t believe it. If I saw a car with a South Carolina plate on it, I mean, like, just laying after. McDonald had a national band, kids from different states. They were performing in Providence. And I found out I went there and I had to find out who was in the band from South Carolina. It was a new guy from Greenville. I just needed to contact him, I needed to talk to him. That’s how bad that was. Okay?
But anyway, I was applying for jobs all over the place, and anyway, I got a call from Cummins Engine Company located in Charleston. When I got the call, when I say call, a telephone call, I thought they were a company in Rhode Island actually. So they called me and asked me to come in for an interview. And during that time, the market in South Carolina was very bad. I mean, I wasn’t relocated anywhere close to South Carolina. And some other companies in Klaus, Kansas City, Missouri and all that. And well, that’s just as far away as I am now, because I was ready to come home. And so when I found out that they were in Charleston, hung the phone up, jumped up and screamed because I couldn’t believe it. So I came in. I had the interview and they got the job and they moved me here. They moved my family, everything, they paid for the whole move.
MBR: Great.
WG: So that’s how I got back to Charleston.
MBR: So you’ve been here-
WG: So I spent six years in Rhode Island and then we came back here. So I came back here in December of 1976.
MBR: And here you are.
WG: Two days before Christmas. Yes, I’ve been here ever since. I spent ten years with Cummins. And then they each shut down. That’s been the story of my life. A company closed and I’m downgrading. Downgrading. They didn’t shut down. They downgraded. Took a year to do that, because when they first mentioned it you didn’t know that they were going to do that, but they did do it finally, because there were rumors years earlier about it. So I did that and then after that, I did small jobs in different cases, different things, and then I eventually went into – became a life insurance agent. So I did that for about ten years and then I retired from doing that.
MBR: Well, boy. That’s all the way around. All over the place.
WG: All over the place. All over the place. I mean, I left some things out, but a couple of small ones. You know.
MBR: That brings us back here. Well, all right. Let me get back to Meggett– to closed up, really. You know, we blew up that photograph of all you guys going up to archive and history when the school was placed on the national register. Usually no one goes to those things, just to let you know that. So that picture of a busload of folks from here going up to witness that really made clear how important the school was to the community.
WG: It was.
MBR: And I think if you could, in closing, kind of talk about what Meggett meant to you and to the community, and how it shaped you. How it shaped you through all those different career paths that you just told me about.
WG: Well, it all started here with everything. Because like I said earlier, this was all we knew. We had good influence from some of the teachers we had. Like I said earlier, that they told us about colleges, but they didn’t go to a lot of details in stories. They shares some of their experiences, what they did. I thought it was a lot rougher than what it was. It was rough, but different degrees of it and different levels. But Meggett, I think it’s dear to all of us. Really dear to us. I mean, this was it. This was our world. It’s all we knew. We didn’t have anything else to compare it to. I know you asked for a comparison. We didn’t have those other schools to compare to. This was our world. This was it. I mean, this was home. Home away from home. We had the opportunity to get to know other students that you remember all your life these folks. I mean, this was part of our life. When you talk about W. Gresham Meggett, it has very strong, deep meaning to most of us, because this was it. We didn’t know anything else. It’s just like home. Your home. Where you grew up. Just the same as Meggett. It helped shape our lives. The teachers, students, other staff members we had, they helped us to become who we are today. Folks from Meggett have gone on and done a whole lot of things professionally in the world. We have doctors, lawyers, engineers, teachers, some of everything.
MBR: Right.
WG: Okay? They mentioned about teachers standing out. Some of the former teachers, they were in there. And there was one woman in there, she went on, she became a teacher. She’s doing sub work now. She’s older. So we have people in all professions that was here. A couple of my classmates, a good friend, they went into ROTC, advanced corps. My roommate was one of them. He became I think a lieutenant colonel in the Military. He’s in Germany. He stayed in Germany. Another classmate– there was only two from my class who went into advanced corps. He’s back in Charleston now, but you know, he became an IT person. And some other classmates are teachers and different things. So, you know, professionally-
MBR: Right. A very accomplished crowd.
WG: Right. It was spread. My class, we had about 52 graduates out of my high school class. And I know we had about ten out of state that went to college. And I’m very proud of my class, because my class, like I said, we had the largest number to go to college from my class, which changed things. Most people did not look forward to going to college until my class graduated. And other folks who look down and say, “Well, if they can do it, we can do it.” It changed the culture here. Folks started looking forward to going to college. Prior to that, folks would say, “Oh, I’m going in the Military. I’m going to business school.” Something like that. But there were a few that went to college, but like I said earlier, most of them we didn’t know anything about them afterwards. All we knew, they supposedly went. There were some folks who had scholarship, but they didn’t go because they said the family did not have money to send them. And sometimes wonder about it and said, “Well, there’s a possibility that they could have gotten a loan or something to go,” but a lot of it has to do with the individual and how serious you are about going somewhere and what you want. One of my favorite lines is as long as you want something, you’ll go far in life. And I pass this onto folks. And if they don’t understand that, I explain to them you have to want something to get something. If you don’t want anything, it doesn’t matter. So as long as you want, that’s what I always pitch to my kid. As long as you want – sometimes kiddingly if they want to say, “Oh, Daddy, I want some toy,” or whatever. I say, “Good. As long as you want something, you’ll go far in life.”
And both my kids, they’ve done well. I have a boy and a girl. I came out of a family with a boy and a girl. I’m the oldest and my sister.
MBR: I thought about that.
WG: I have a son. I have a daughter. They’re both doing well. So, especially because you mentioned about being involved in a kid’s life. So, yeah. I just pass it down. I’m not sure if my son or daughter mentioned. They all went to South Carolina State also.
MBR: They did?
WG: Oh, yes. And they said, oh, they knew they were going there. I mean, there was no doubt about it. And it wasn’t like, “I want to go here or there.” And a lot of folks go to school for the wrong reason. You know, because their friends are doing it, or this one doing, or this the popular place to go. They kind of knew that’s where they were going. My son played football at South Carolina State. Matter of fact, he had a football scholarship. And my daughter, she played basketball a couple years and she didn’t quite have a scholarship.
MBR: But she liked – yeah.
WG: A little help.
MBR: Yeah.
WG: But he’s an IT person now. DVA. And my daughter, she’s a speech therapist
MBR: You must be very proud of them.
WG: I am. I am.
MBR: I’m sure they’re proud of you as well.
WG: Well, yeah. Well, we’re proud of them. They’ve done well. We haven’t had any problems or anything with them. They knew where they came from.
MBR: Well, I thank you so much for talking with me today. Is there something that you wanted to say that we didn’t touch on? I guess that would be-
WG: I think we pretty much covered everything. The last question about something about Gresham Meggett. How dear it is to all of us. It means a lot. I wasn’t here when they shut the school down, but that was a big blow to a lot of folks. Desegregation, they shut the school down and they went through other stuff with it. But it meant so much to so many people, and not being from here – when I say not being from here, I mean from James Island, having attended here. A lot of folks don’t understand the role that W Gresham Meggett played in our lives. It has a much bigger meaning I feel to us than to a lot of folks from that school that attended. Now, a school that had been in existence for a number of years I know is sacred to a lot of folks, but to some folks, well, it’s just a school. But this was our life. We didn’t have any big social life. I mean, everything evolved around W. Gresham Meggett, what was happening here. So this was it. Like I said, just athletically, we were limited with just football. We didn’t have any other sport. We didn’t have baseball, basketball, golf or anything else.
MBR: But you’re saying something that’s really important I think. Because a lot of people worry about the equalization schools, people romanticizing them as being – but in reality, you’re talking about something that was the lifeblood of the community.
WG: It was. It was. And that’s what I’m saying. A lot of people don’t understand that. I mean, and I understand what you mentioned about comparing it to other schools. You didn’t have anything to compare it to. This was our world. This was it. Good, bad, or indifferent. This was it. This is all we had. We had nothing else to look forward to. We couldn’t say, “Well, hey, I wish I was over there.” One of the things I didn’t mention, that we were told in the media that attending the white school, you got a better education. That was some propaganda that was fed to us. Also, integration was propaganda also. Attending a white school, we were led to believe that white kids got a better education than we got, because we were a predominantly black schools. It’s just what you heard in the media.
One of my concerns when I was at school was the fact that I was in engineer curriculum and we had restrictive electives. And I got to the point where I wanted to take some other course that I wasn’t supposed to take because our electives were restricted. So we had to take certain things. And I was bothered by that. I felt that I wanted to be a little more well-rounded. I wish I could have taken some other courses that I was not allowed to take. I did go and talk to the dean and so forth, so they allowed me to take another course. I took a course in psychology. And she was Filipino. She had been on a Woodrow Wilson Scholarship or something. But anyway, she worked here around different schools. She had taught, too. So one of the things I was curious about, how did we compare to white kids? Well, yeah.
MBR: Why not? Yeah.
WG: Yeah. I want to know. Because the only thing I knew is stuff we always heard. So she said like, it’s the same. It ain’t no different. “Really?” I mean, we were always taught that we were something else. You know? So that had some meaning to me. Okay. So I didn’t know that. Okay. So we are all pretty much the same. So when I went to Vietnam and I told you I worked in the fire direction center. I was the only black in that area. Everybody was white. Okay. So I dealt with white folks. I sold them vegetables did a few other little thing, but I didn’t have a whole lot of experience dealing with white folks. Okay? So now I was thrown in a white world, and that didn’t bother me. I mean, I wasn’t terrified as some folks would be. I’m very flexible.
And anyway, so got my training there and a lot of the jobs that I mentioned I had, I was either the only black person or one of a few, whether I work at Raytheon. Like I said, they had about 1200 employees and there were three other blacks. They were all older than me that worked there and each was in a different building. I was in a building with one of them. I was like 24 years old, he was in his mid to late 30’s. And we were the only two in the same building. One other guy, I never even got to know him. So I learned years later, I looked back on it, when they hired me it was kind of, “Well, we’ll hire one to see how he works out.” And then later they brought another young black in, then another one, and then another one. I said, “Oh, shit! I was the guinea pig on that one. I didn’t know it.” No, I’m serious. For the last ten years. I wasn’t really thinking about it, the only guys came in after me. I said, “Okay.” So I did well and they said, “Let’s try another one.”
MBR: You might have set the bar high. I don’t know.
WG: Yeah. So anyway, I’m saying that to say these are things that I’m proud of, you know, how things worked out, and it all comes back here. We had an excellent football coach. Matter of fact, he taught me science. He was the football coach, and he was also the principal.
MBR: Oh, gee. Oh, boy.
WG: No nonsense person.
MBR: Yeah. I was just going to say. You caught it at everything with him, right?
WG: No nonsense person. And when I talked to Ms. Adams, the guidance counselor, she said, “Oh, Mr. Evans,” that was his name, Alfonzo Evans, “Oh, his brother’s in charge of the dining hall. That might be a good place for you to work.” “Okay.” So that worked out. So he’s from Orangeburg, so his brother was in charge there. But one of the things I learned from him and also another from football coach, David Mack, he was supposed to been here today. But he left here and taught downtown, and then he became one of the area superintendents downtown. But we had a no nonsense football team. Strict rules, we abide by – we got compliments on how we perform on the field, from the officials, they complimented the coach, he passed it down to us. Like, we were organized, we did what we were supposed to. The play was over. We were taught to get back in the huddle and get ready for the next play, and that’s what we did. No dragging around. Football practice, you were there for practice. You didn’t mess with the guys on the sideline, you know, spectators. You didn’t interact with them or anything. You were totally playing. If you want to play football, you play football. If you want to interact with them, turn your uniform in, you’re going to join them. Okay? Very strict. And I learned that the discipline that they taught us, that’s what I borrowed in life from them. Those are things that has followed me. You run a tight ship, you have a tight organization. You run a slack ship, you’re going to have a slack organization. You got somebody working for you, they’re either an asset or a liability. You don’t need liability. You want somebody who’s going to be an asset.
MBR: Asset.
WG: And through life, those things have followed me, and that’s who I am.
MBR: That’s really a great way to finish. Thank you.
WG: And that’s going back to W. Gresham Meggett. Gresham Meggett.
MBR: Yes. It does. Well, I’ve really enjoyed-
WG: It all started here.
MBR: …this interview. I hope you have.
WG: I have, too. I’m hoping that I was able to share some stuff with you that was meaningful. And it helped shape, form us, and prepared us for the future. And I have no regrets about attending school here.
MBR: No. I don’t blame you.
