This interview was conducted on behalf of Charleston County as part of the project: Stories from Historic African American Communities: A Journey to Equal Education, W. Gresham Meggett High School, James Island, SC. Charleston County was awarded a grant from the Department of Interior and National Park Service (NPS) in 2018 to conduct this oral history project aimed to provide insight into the lives of African American students during desegregation. The project is structured by the NPS research framework: Civil Rights in America: A Framework for Identifying Significant Sites (2002, rev. 2008).
This interview was conducted on July 29, 2019 at St. James Presbyterian Church, James Island, Charleston County, South Carolina. Velma Fann, historian (New South Associates) was the interviewer; Jenna Tran (New South Associates) was the technical assistant.
VELMA FANN: Good afternoon. This is Velma Fann, and I am here to speak with Ms. Terrie Urie Washington—
TERRIE URIE WASHINGTON: Yes.
VF: …about the experiences at Meggett, and Fort Johnson—
TUW: Yes.
VF: …and James Island High School.
TUW: Yes.
VF: We’re talking about the equalization programs, as well as the desegregation programs
So, welcome.
TUW: Thank you.
VF: It’s July 29, and we are ready to get started.
TUW: All right.
VF: So, I’ll ask you a little bit…some of the background, your background, your family’s background. Can we start by you spelling your first name and last name for us?
TUW: Yes. Terrie, T-E-R-R-I-E. Urie, U-R-I-E. Washington, W-A-S-H-I-N-G-T-O-N.
VF: Okay. Great. Thank you. Your birth, and your location?
TUW: Birthdate—the whole birthdate?
VF: As much as you’d like to share.
TUW: Okay. January 9, and that was in Charleston, South Carolina.
VF: Now, tell us about your childhood. Where did you spend your childhood?
TUW: It was on James Island. Yes. I grew up with 12 brothers and sisters, and it was a very diverse group of brothers and sisters. With my being maybe three or four years old, I got to experience the ones that were closer in age to me. But in having family time, you ended up hearing the good and the bad stories about school, because everything came into the home, in terms of talking about what was going on. School was an integral part of everybody’s life. So that was just as important as home upbringing, because what went into the school also came into the household, too. And if you got a call from the school, something was definitely wrong, and your parents did not appreciate a call from the school. So, being one of the youngest, I always listened and learned, because I did not want to have some of the issues that my brothers and sisters had coming into the home, from the school.
VF: Let me ask you, you were born in Charleston, so what brought your family here?
TUW: We’re originally from Charleston.
VF: Okay.
TUW: Right. We came from the plantation. The white side of my family is Grimball [phonetic 00:02:38] from Johns Island. And as far as I know, that’s half of where we came from, and the other half was already on James Island.
VF: And your father’s name and occupation?
TUW: Harry Urie Senior, and he was a general contractor or a construction laborer.
VF: And your mom?
TUW: My mom, Florence Urie, she was a housekeeper. I think they called it domestic engineer.
VF: Domestic?
TUW: Hm-hmm. [affirmative] Yes.
VF: So, how important was education in your family?
TUW: Very important. I know in listening to my parents talk to my older siblings, as they got older, they were expected to do something. They were not permitted to be at home. They were expected to work. My parents worked, so everybody had to work. Everybody had a responsibility, right all the way down to me. Dishes were my thing. My brothers, if it was tending the garden for the older ones, then some of them had lawnmower, yard responsibilities; things of that sort. Yes.
VF: And education as far as your parents? Do you know what grade level they reached, or…?
TUW: Hm-hmm. [affirmative] Probably for my father, it was more like the third grade. Maybe second or third grade for my mother also.
VF: So, they really pushed it for their children?
TUW: I think they needed to. They recognized the importance of it, and for anyone to succeed, you had to have the education. Yes.
VF: Tell us about Gresham Meggett. Now, what schools did you attend here?
TUW: For me, I went to Murray-Lasaine Elementary, James Island Middle School, and James Island High School. For my siblings, it was either W. Gresham Meggett or James Island High School, and that happened right at segregation.
VF: Are you familiar with Meggett? Did you ever accompany your brothers or sisters to the school or anything? What do you remember about Meggett?
TUW: Meggett, I remember because, like I said, it was a community type of thing. School was just as important as your home life. So, there was always talk of what went on inside of school; the good and the bad. Anything that happened to anybody, if it came—happened at school, then it came into the house. And I think also, with so many siblings, there weren’t going to be any secrets, or don’t tell mom and dad, you know. It was going to come into the house, either through the teacher, or through a sibling, or through a neighbor. So, school was very important.
I would say for me, my first interaction was maybe at three or four years old, going to the school with my siblings. And like I said, school was a part of your life, so in those days you got the opportunity to go to school with your siblings. And they had specific days set aside where you could bring your younger siblings to school, and I guess to motivate them, and let them see what school was all about. And, you know, since hey, this is going to be an experience for you also, you know, and to keep you interested and connected with them.
So, with us living in a neighborhood right off of Riverland Drive, we would walk down Riverland Drive, across the airport, which is now a grown field now, but the hangars and such like are still there, and then, we would walk across to the school. So, it was a straight line, but if you took Riverland Drive and went down all of the side roads, maybe about 30 minutes worth of walking, but if you cut across, I’d say, the airport and such like, it was maybe 15 minutes’ worth of walking. So, my siblings that were closer to age to me, Kay and Janet, they were more of the ones that would take us to school with them. Yes.
VF: And when you walked into the building, what did you see? What did your young eyes see?
TUW: Lots of African Americans. Oh, my goodness. Lots of well-educated people. You got to sit inside the classrooms; listen, learn, understand the equipment, the books, televisions. If it was a welding class, if it was a carpentry class, you got to go into the different classroom and environment. And everybody was respectful and very nice with the young ones. Yes.
VF: Do you remember any particular teachers that your siblings talked about?
TUW: Mr. Richardson was there, and he was one of the more dominant figures in the neighborhood and also in the community, because he was from James Island. And so, you know, he would remind us who we were, and be like, oh, you don’t want to really have me go and talk to your parents, do you? So that was a rather scary thought. So, he was connected with us through church, community, and then into the neighborhood, and also at the school. Yes.
VF: Do you remember his first name?
TUW: Not off the top of my head, right now.
VF: Okay.
TUW: Yes.
VF: We’ll come back to this then.
TUW: All right.
VF: So, you’re there. You’re looking around at Meggett. You’re seeing—now, you mentioned that the stories, whatever happened in school was going to come home.
TUW: Yes.
VF: So, did anything happen in school with your brothers and sisters that came home, that you can talk about?
TUW: Well, I know with my older siblings, when they first started, they were like—they wouldn’t tell me everything that happened, so you would kind of have to eavesdrop. But I know with my older siblings, a couple of them, because they did not have, like maybe someone else within the community or neighborhood have, they would actually have to take turns going to school, because they would share clothing; they would share shoes. So certain days, certain people went to school, and certain days, other siblings went to school. Those were with my older two siblings, but more like, with my siblings starting with my brother Harry—we called him Happy; it was more of a cohesive type of environment, because they were actually raised in the house by my parents. Right.
So, Harry was an excellent student; straight A’s. The mindset that he could have gone to college, but in those days, college was very expensive. And in terms of an African American going to college, it was very rare; quite a sacrifice. So, he went into the Army.
VF: And what were, what were your dreams growing up? In terms of career wise, and where you wanted to go, and who inspired you?
TUW: I think just seeing people function in a positive manner, that was one of the key dreams for me. I always still go back to the days where we got to actually see and be at the school, and know that, all right, good, my turn is going to come. I’ll get to be permanently on these halls at W. Gresham Meggett. So, in terms of wanting to be someone or something, I just knew I was always going to be someone, because we always had that positive energy around us, either through the church home or at school. Probably the biggest thing I wanted to be was maybe a secretary. Yeah.
VF: So, we talk about community and the reinforcement. Tell me a little bit about that. You’re on this island, sometimes people may have a different impression about people born on the island—
TUW: Hm-hmm. [affirmative]
VF: …their culture, their Gullah language. How, how were you reinforced? How did they make sure that you held your head up high?
TUW: I think constant, being around you. In those days—oh, my goodness. If you did something incorrect, the paddle came out, or the switch came out. So, there was an opportunity for you to be disciplined by just about anyone in the community or in the neighborhood, if they knew you and they were familiar with you. So, I think in terms of discipline, and structure, and them reminding us of who we were, and who we were representing as a culture, that stood out most in my mind. It’s like, okay, you know, you’re not just representing your family; you’re representing African Americans also.
VF: So, was African American history infused, or was it just black history month, or were you always being reminded?
TUW: You had the pictures inside of your home of President Kennedy, Martin Luther King, and they were always side by side, with every other relative or family member. So, you always were aware of what your responsibilities were, and who you could aspire to. The schools made sure you saw others of your own. Yeah, either through the community, or had them come in and talk to you and interact with you, and the church did the same thing, too. They made sure people came by, you know, and talked to you. Yeah.
VF: So, the move—I guess with maybe your older brothers and sisters from Meggett, where did they attend high school?
TUW: Most of my siblings came through W. Gresham Meggett. My sister Kay, she was the one that was impacted the most.
VF: Okay.
TUW: Most of my siblings were through W. Gresham Meggett, and with her being the one—I don’t think she was anticipating desegregation, so she was always the rabble-rouser. I think she resented it at that point, but she adapted. But there were a lot of riots, you know, and disagreements by the time she got to James Island High School. So, they were always tugging and pulling with the teachers and the administrators over at James Island High School. We didn’t have a true identity when she came through, and so I think that was difficult for her to adapt to.
She ran away from home, as a matter of fact, with a couple of her friends. They decided they would ride their bicycles up north. They got as far as North Carolina, and like I tell people, I say, wow, North Carolina didn’t want them. So, they called our parents, and they put them on the bus and sent them right back to Charleston. So, I think it was three of them that attempted to leave the south, you know, but yeah. They got as far as North Carolina, so it was pretty funny.
VF: So, let’s, let’s back up. How, how did the word get out that all of a sudden desegregation was going to take place, and you were going to be going to another school? How did your family learn? How did your sisters learn? How did they respond?
TUW: In terms of learning about it, it was all over the media. The schools made you aware of it. And the churches definitely were an integral role player; Reverend Cornelius Campbell was here. He was very much an advocate for us being calm, and rational, and being responsible about our responsibility, and what a good thing it was going to be. But that’s a major change, so a lot of people didn’t really want it. They felt we could succeed and do better on our own, but my parents didn’t have that attitude. I think with us being white and black, we knew that we could not stay within that black world, like a lot of people wanted us to be. And he says, no, our children need to be structed like everybody else, and have the same benefits of everybody else.
If the triggers are avoided, then the conditions viagra uk without prescription can be controlled with the help of effective treatments. They concluded that treatment by a chiropractor using spinal manipulations was an effective and superior levitra cheap online treatment to other soft tissue therapies for headaches and that chiropractic had a more positive long term effect than medication in the treatment of headaches. Somewhere between 5 and 10 percent of men go through from erectile dysfunction owing to psychological factors http://appalachianmagazine.com/2016/10/25/governor-tomblin-announces-recommendations-for-5-1-million-in-arc-grants/ generico cialis on line like sadness, tensions, weakness, nervousness or displeasure with the spouse. It is thought that over 40% of men in their 50s and around 17% men in their 60s are affected by ED. cheap cialisVF: So. the first day…your sister, Kay?
TUW: Yes.
VF: Okay. What was her first day like? Did she come home and tell you about it? Or when she went to the James High School, right?
TUW: Hm-hmm. [affirmative] James Island High School.
VF: What, what did she say? How, how—what changes did you see? What did you notice? Did she tell you about her first day at school?
TUW: To her, it was predominantly white. Okay. James Island has always been predominantly white. I think one of the advantages though, is during those days, everybody knew everybody. So, she was aware of the other persons and who they were, but in terms of resenting it, yes, she was very much resentful of having to give up her identity as a black person.
VF: Let’s talk about that a little bit, to give up her identity as a black person. What do you mean? Give me—help me understand that a little better.
TUW: I think she had prepared herself emotionally, and just like me, I was looking forward to going to W. Gresham Meggett. Oh, it’s my turn coming, you know, I’ll be there, because W. Gresham Meggett didn’t just have high school, they also had the younger children, elementary, or maybe middle school age children there also. So, I knew that my turn was coming, but she realized, wow, this is—this is gone. And if you look at it in terms of a young person being maybe 14, 16 years old, that’s a [unintelligible 00:16:56]. So, it was very hard.
Like I said, she was one of the key persons that would be involved with the, the riots, the picketing, no going to school. And even though our parents were encouraging it, or the church was encouraging the blending; a lot of the students didn’t really care for it as much, but they were the ones that were going to be directly impacted. So, in those days, you were told what your responsibly were. You didn’t have that control, and with that, they didn’t have control, you know.
VF: So, there were actual riots at the school?
TUW: Yes. James Island had quite a few. As a matter of fact, when I spoke about Reverend Campbell, even as a part of worship, or they would have community meetings, he would remind everybody: be respectful, don’t take any weapons, don’t take any hammers or clubs, or you know, be respectful of the other students that are at the school, don’t do anything that’s going to make the community look bad, your parents look bad, and such like. But like I said, they really didn’t care too much for the idea of having to give up all that they were connected to and start all over with another school.
VF: So, this is your older sister. Are you close to her in terms of age or just talking? Is she a close sister?
TUW: Yes.
VF: When you saw that spirit in her, what did you think? This is my big sister, what she’s going through and how she’s responding.
TUW: I think it, it kind of calmed me down, because I was like, oh, wow, somebody’s in the forefront. Okay, good. My parents didn’t see it that way. They saw it as rebellion, and in those days, you never were rebellious. You just toed the line and did what was expected of you. So, that gave me a good feeling, like, oh, somebody’s got my back. They’re trying to, you know, keep Meggett alive, and make a decision that’s going to impact me later on.
VF: Did she talk about the difference maybe, in the building, or the books, or the teachers? Did she have African American teachers now that she was going to James Island High School?
TUW: To me, in looking at the school, because we were expected to go to the meetings also at the school or in the community, I didn’t see that many African American teachers that actually went into James Island High School. Most of the African American teachers stayed, I’d say, within the elementary school; a few within the middle school. So, most of them transitioned maybe into the areas that were predominantly black. Yes.
And I think in those days, the school had to accept you, which I believe is still the official rule. You have to be interviewed and accepted by that school, you know, through application process. You aren’t just sent over there saying, oh, okay, we want so and so to come over. No, you reapplied for your job. Yeah.
VF: Did she talk about the nurturing? I would imagine that Meggett was very nurturing.
TUW: Hm-hmm. [affirmative]
VF: And then you’re thrust into a whole different environment. Were there teachers she was close to, or how did—how did she feel, just being in this new situation? Is there someone she could go to; did she go to your parents whenever problems were there, or the community, or the pastor, or was there a teacher who nurtured her and kind of worked with her through this?
TUW: I think in terms of teachers, the ones that were a part of our community already, they tried to stay as connected as they could to the students that were here. So, the persons like Mr. Richardson, you know, that were actually a part of the school system, they would speak to them, give them positive words of encouragement, but they had that rebellious spirit within them. So, they were not going to not deny themselves the opportunity to do things their way. Right.
VF: So, now you mentioned this bicycle trip to North Carolina.
TUW: Hm-hmm. [affirmative] Wow.
VF: She must have done some planning. Did she, did she leave a note? Did she tell you? Did she whisper?
TUW: I think their plan was, oh, I’ll be at so and so’s house. So that’s the way they got away with not being at the house.
VF: Yeah.
TUW: But, yes, you’re right. It did take a lot of planning. That’s kind of dangerous to me also, is to make up your… And I think that’s one of the reasons ultimately, she ended up in New Jersey, because my parents finally had to realize, oh, you know, she is not going to adapt, and we need to just get her out of the area until maybe, she becomes more rationale, or more accepting of the blended school. But once she went up north to New Jersey, she never came back to be educated. Nope. She ended up retiring as a captain in the Air Force after 33 years, so I think that was a very good decision my parents made when they shipped her off to New Jersey.
VF: Now, was she the only one leaving Meggett, going to one of the—desegregating the high schools? I know you said, your older brothers and sisters were at Meggett.
TUW: Right. She was the first one that would have been going and finishing over at James Island High School.
VF: Was there anyone under her, who finished at James Island?
TUW: Yes. My brother Keith and me.
VF: And how were your experiences?
TUW: Well, by that point, it was accepted. And my parents were always of the mindset, we didn’t have a choice, and I think by that point, by the time I got to high school, it was more blended, and it was more accepted. So, it didn’t bother me to be friends or be in the same classroom with white children.
VF: So, if we would look back now, as—let’s look at you as a parent. Would you have asked your child to go through that process of desegregation? Would you have—what would you have said, or done, or how would you have helped your child?
TUW: I think I would have followed the same course my parents did. Yeah. I think I would have given it a try. I mean, being born in the 50s and the 60s, those were very turbulent times. There was a lot going on. Vietnam was happening. We had a lot of black men that died. And so, I think I would have done the same thing.
VF: So, the effort was to equalize the schools; separate but equal. What’s your comment on that? Can you be separate and equal?
TUW: No. The books weren’t up to the same standard. I would say, the school was, because it was a fairly new school. And the school probably was given to them because it was an alternative to having us in their schools. So, it was like, hey, let’s give them their own school, and they’ll be off to one side. So, even when I was in school, and I was at Murray-Lasaine Elementary, the, the books weren’t really brand new, but I think eventually by the 70s, and by the 80s, and parents petitioning, the pastors petitioning, the reverends petitioning; there wasn’t that much of an opportunity for us to be denied. But everything was always a battle, yeah.
VF: Always a battle.
TUW: Hm-hmm. [affirmative] Still is.
VF: Yes. Thank you. Is there anything you’d like to add?
TUW: No, no. I don’t think so. I know my, my siblings are probably going to be shocked that I’m doing an interview, but can I include all of their names as a part of—
VF: Yes, you may. Yes, yes.
TUW: …the interview?
VF: Tell me, tell me a little bit about every one of them: personality, how they did, where they are, the pecking order… Who was really in charge?
TUW: All right. Well, Irene is the oldest. She is like 78 right now; good, positive advocate. She was like 16 years old, okay, when she was there. Kathleen was there also. All right.
VF: When you say there, you mean—
TUW: Meggett.
VF: At Meggett. Okay.
TUW: Right. Hm-hmm. [affirmative] And Harry Junior was there; very well liked, mannerly, good young man. Glen was there, and Lawrence was there. And one story I can tell you about Lawrence is, he wasn’t a good student. He didn’t care for school. Mother and Daddy were constantly at the school behind him; black principal, black assistant principal. And so, he started carrying this briefcase. And my mother was like, woohoo, finally he’s focused on his education. All right. So, come to find out, when they got the call from the school to come in because there, there needed to be a meeting, he had converted a briefcase to a carriable bar. Yes. Oh, my goodness. How he didn’t get expelled? I do not know. Maybe by the grace of God through my parents, and the churches, and such like.
But when stuff like that happened, you know, the schools in those days, they, they worked with you. You know what I mean? So that created chaos at home for a while, because my, my mother was denying that it was her child. And my father was like, no, you got to take care of that, and he was like, no, that’s your responsibility. So, yeah, that was one of the stories I was permitted to hear. Yeah.
Let’s see, Janie was there. She was a fairly good student, but by that point, my sister Irene had moved to Boston, and so she didn’t finish Meggett. See, there was still an impression that, the north was better, which it was, because we were more geared toward not getting the income and the type of jobs we were entitled to as everybody else. So, there we go again. My mother and father made the decision to send them up north. So, Janie finished in Boston with my sister Irene. Janet finished at Meggett, and she went, and she got married to a military guy from New Jersey, so right after graduating. So, I don’t think my parents really cared for that idea, but she left, and she moved to New Jersey. There we go again, to get another opportunity.
Kate, she was at Meggett, and she didn’t do very well with the rebellion and such like. So, she was sent to New Jersey also. And Keith, he finished here at James Island. And then, my brother Bernard, he wasn’t doing very well, so he was sent to New Jersey. And then I finished at James Island High School in 1977. Yes.
VF: Very good. Thank you.
TUW: Hm-hmm. [affirmative]
VF: Now, your sister, do you call her Kate or Kay?
TUW: We called her both—
VF: Okay.
TUW: …but I usually call her Kate.
VF: Okay.
TUW: Hm-hmm. [affirmative]
VF: All right. Thank you for sharing this history with us.
TUW: Oh, you’re welcome.
VF: And to—giving us an insight on what it was like, you know, to make that transition. Hearing it as a child, you know—
TUW: Hm-hmm. [affirmative]
VF: …hearing it.
TUW: And, and I mean, the diversity and the structure, it won’t be the same ever again.
VF: Hm-hmm. [affirmative]
TUW: But I appreciate it. I enjoyed it. Yeah.
VF: So, let me ask you, whose side were you on: Kate’s side or your parent’s side?
TUW: Oh, I think I was more on Kay’s side. In terms of, not wanting to miss out on the opportunity of being a full African American, you know. I think I was more on her, because I feel that whenever you blend into another culture, which it was another culture, you lose a lot of who you are as a culture. So, I was more on her side.
VF: Thank you very much.
TUW: You’re welcome.
