This interview was conducted on behalf of Charleston County as part of the project: Stories from Historic African American Communities: A Journey to Equal Education, W. Gresham Meggett High School, James Island, SC. Charleston County was awarded a grant from the Department of Interior and National Park Service (NPS) in 2018 to conduct this oral history project aims to provide insight into the lives of African American students during desegregation. The project is structured by the NPS research framework: Civil Rights in America: A Framework for Identifying Significant Sites (2002, rev. 2008).
This interview was conducted on February 23, 2019 at W. Gresham Meggett School (Septima P. Clark Academy), James Island, Charleston County, South Carolina. David Richardson was the interviewer; Terri Gillett was the technical assistant.
DR: First, let me identify. My name is David Richardson, and we’re here at the Gresham Meggett High School in one of their classrooms. And, the day is, it’s February 23, 2019, and we are very pleased to have—Would you please give us your full name and address?
ER: My name is Prophetess Emma Lorraine Chavis Richardson.
DR: And where do you reside?
ER: I reside at 1497 Woodview Lane, Charleston, South Carolina.
DR: Would mind sharing with us your date of birth and where you were born?
ER: Well, I was born on May 7, 1950, and I was born here in Charleston, South Carolina.
DR: And when you say here, any specific section or here?
ER: I live on James Island. I was born on James Island, and I lived here all my life.
DR: So, where did you spend—You said you spent most of your childhood here also?
ER: Yes.
DR: Okay. Would you state your name of your father and where he lived?
ER: My father’s name is Calvin Chavis, and he lived on James Island, Sol Legare Road.
DR: What kind of occupation did he have?
ER: Well, he was a man of many trades. He was a farmer. He was a truck driver. He also was a painter, and he was a maintenance man.
DR: And your mother’s name?
ER: My mother’s name is Mamie Ruth Chavis.
DR: And where was she born?
ER: She was born on James Island also, and she resided on Sol Legare Road. And, that’s where she lived her whole life.
DR: Did she have an occupation, or was she just a housewife?
ER: She was a domestic worker—
DR: Okay.
ER: …and a house—
DR: And a house wife?
ER: Right.
DR: Do you have siblings?
ER: Yes. I have nine siblings. Well, two are deceased right now.
DR: And where do you fall in the birth of all of them?
ER: I am the seventh out of 10 children.
DR: My goodness, okay. Now, where did you go to school?
ER: I began school at the Sol Legare School on Sol Legare my first year. I was five years old, and then, they, the school board decided to change the school over to W. Gresham Meggett. So, this is where I came over in my second year of school, and I was here up until my 10th grade.
DR: Right. Tell us where were your parents educated.
ER: My parents, they had their education from, my mother always said, Society Corner School.
DR: Society Corner?
ER: Society Corner School.
DR: Okay.
ER: And, which is on James Island.
DR: Yes. Okay. So, before they built the Sol Legare Community School, everybody from Sol Legare attended the Society Corner School too there?
ER: Yes.
DR: I see. Was education highly emphasized in her your family when you were coming up?
ER: Yes. It was very much emphasized. We would always be told by my mother and father that you must get an education. You know, you’ve got to go to school, and it was a must.
DR: Where were your siblings educated?
ER: They were also educated here on James Island.
DR: Okay. Did you attend—You said you attended elementary school on Sol Legare?
ER: Yeah, my first year.
DR: The first year?
ER: Yes.
DR: And so, that must have been about 1952?
ER: It was ’55.
DR: Fifty-five?
ER: Yes.
DR: Okay. All right. And after that, where did you go?
ER: 55′-’56. In ’56, we were transferred over to this school, W. Gresham Meggett Elementary. W. Gresham Meggett was elementary and high school, and they mixed together.
DR: Okay. So, in ’56, you begin. What grade were you in at that time?
ER: Second grade.
DR: Second grade? So, you continued to third grade here at Gresham Meggett?
ER: Yes.
DR: Okay. Which was then elementary and high school?
ER: Yes.
DR: Okay. Tell me. Were your parents active in y’all’s education while you were in school?
ER: Not so much, but they wanted to make sure that we did our homework and did everything that we were supposed to do, you know, pertaining to school. Go to school, do your homework, get good grades, you know, and they always told us you were to know to do more than one thing. So, you know, my dad did a lot of stuff and taught us as lot, showed us a lot of stuff. We learned from him.
DR: Let me go back to the Sol Legare School. Can you describe what that school building was like?
ER: It was—
DR: At the time, based on your memory, of course.
ER: I can remember they had about four classrooms.
DR: Okay.
ER: And, the first classroom, you know, I mainly stayed in that classroom because the older children, you know, they had the other classrooms.
DR: Who was your teacher at the time?
ER: Ms. Grayson. I don’t remember what her first name was, but I remember her name was Ms. Grayson.
DR: And there were four teachers at that school at the time?
ER: Yes.
DR: So, those four teachers, some of them double up on classes then?
ER: No. Well, they had—Yeah. They had different ages, age groups, you know.
DR: Yes.
ER: Different classes.
DR: And you said, ’56, you got transferred here to Gresham Meggett?
ER: Yes.
DR: The entire school? So, how did they—
ER: Yes. They closed that school down, and it became a trade school.
DR: So, how many grades above your grade also attended the Sol Legare School?
ER: Well, I’m not really sure. I think it was, I believe it was sixth grade, and, from there, they brought them over here. But, they were, they closed the Sol Legare School down and made it a trade school, brick mason.
DR: Do you have any idea or why they transferred y’all to Gresham Meggett?
ER: I’m not sure, but I believe it was, they were going to, there were too many—I think they were going to just close it down because Gresham Meggett had already been established, and the kids in this area was already coming to this school, you know. So, they wanted to close that one and make it a, like I said, you know, a trade school.
DR: Was there any difference between the white or black schools that you were aware of at the time?
ER: At the time, back in that, when I was—No. I didn’t think much about it.
DR: Okay.
ER: You know? I really didn’t think that much about it at that time, but, when I was transferred to James Island High School, I could see there was a big difference.
DR: So, let’s us focus right now, temporarily, on what was it like when you came to Gresham Meggett.
ER: Well, it was nice. I liked it. There was a lot more kids. There were—I could remember the lunch room. The lunch room was very large, you know, and we had parents of, you know, that lived around here who worked in it. And, they were really wonderful parents because, you know, they cared, as well. They knew your parents as well, you know, and they cared for you. They’d look out for you too, you know.
DR: So, you’re saying there was, like, a community among the, even the staff here?
ER: Yes.
DR: Okay. How far did you have to travel to come to school?
ER: I think it was about three miles, three or four miles.
DR: How did you get there?
ER: We had buses that would come.
DR: Okay.
ER: They would bus us from Sol Legare and bring us over here and bus us back home.
DR: Do you remember how many school buses there were at the time?
ER: No, I really don’t. I don’t remember that.
DR: Do you remember some of those bus drivers?
ER: I remember, yeah. I remember some of them.
DR: Can you share some of those names that you might remember at this time?
ER: I remember Wilburn Gilliard. Who else?
DR: So, these were student drivers then?
ER: Yeah. They were student drivers. I know Harry Walker was one.
DR: Who was the principal when you came over to Gresham Meggett?
ER: Mr. Anderson.
DR: Anything special that you remember about him?
ER: He was very strict, and he would take you to the office if you did anything wrong. He would give you a whooping, you know. He would school you, and he would, you know, really be a parent.
DR: So, you’re saying teachers were allowed then to administer corporal punishment?
ER: Yes.
DR: Okay. Do you remember some of the teachers that were here at the time?
ER: I remember Ms. Ann Richardson, Ms. Amica [phonetic 00:10:43], Ms. Spears, Ms. Counts. I don’t remember all their first names though. Mr. Richardson, he was the agriculture teacher, and he was in high school.
DR: Okay. What about the teachers that were at Sol Legare School?
ER: Mrs. Richardson, Ms. Grayson, Ms. Presette [phonetic] [00:11:08].
DR: So, those teachers that you just named were transferred and came with the classes from Sol Legare?
ER: Yes.
DR: Was that the same case with some of the other areas you think? Do you remember?
ER: Probably so.
DR: Do you remember Ms. Greenwood?
ER: No. I don’t remember her.
DR: Do you remember what the philosophy at Gresham Meggett was, what was expected of the students?
ER: No, I really don’t remember. I don’t even remember them talking about that.
DR: Were you ever in or participated in any scholastic activities?
ER: The only thing we did was, like, we would go outside at recess time and did the playing or whatever, but, other than that, there was nothing extra, no extracurriculars.
DR: Were your parents involved, go to PTA meetings? Were they involved in your school education?
ER: Well, not regular. Once in a while, my mom would go to the PTA meeting. It wasn’t important.
DR: Were you—In 1952, there were a series of schools that were built in the South for African Americans. Gresham Meggett was one of those schools. Were you able to notice the improvement coming from the community school to when you were moved over to Gresham Meggett? Can you describe what it was like?
ER: Like I said, it was, to me, a new school. There were bigger classes, you know.
DR: Okay.
ER: New students. You know, it just was, it was just something you had to get used to, you know, a difference because, in the school that I was at, you know, it was a smaller class, school, smaller classes, you know. The curriculum was different.
DR: How would the furniture be at the Gresham Meggett? Was there a difference between that and where you came from?
ER: They had better desks. Our desks were, you know, hard, you know, wooden chairs and stuff, but it was an improvement. It was a big improvement.
DR: Okay. And you said that they served food too?
ER: Oh, yeah. Yes. They had, also, a lunch room on Sol Legare, you know.
DR: So, Gresham Meggett was initially a segregated school?
ER: Yes.
DR: And, I understand that you went to another school. You left Gresham Meggett.
ER: Yes.
DR: And what school was that?
ER: I went to James Island High School, and that was, at the time, on Camp Road. Yeah.
DR: What grade was that for you?
ER: I went—It was my eleventh year.
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ER: Yeah.
DR: How as that experience?
ER: At first, I didn’t really want to go.
DR: How were you selected?
ER: Well, at the time—
DR: Or were you a volunteer?
ER: Well, my mom volunteered me. They were sending out applications, you know, after they—
DR: When you say they were sending out applications, the school here?
ER: The school, yes.
DR: Okay.
ER: They were sending out applications, and, for anyone who wanted to transfer over at the time because, you know, the schools were being integrated. And, my mom pulled it out, and I was selected to go over there.
DR: What kind of preparation were you given before that transition?
ER: I wasn’t given any. No preparation whatsoever. Just that my name was, you know, on the roll to go over there, and, when school started, that was where I was going.
DR: How many other students went with you from Gresham Meggett?
ER: There were many, probably about 15.
DR: Okay.
ER: About 15 or so.
DR: So, your class here at Gresham Meggett before you transferred, about what size was it?
ER: There were about 20 students in the class.
DR: So, almost more? Okay, very good. What was that experience at James Island High?
ER: Well, it was something new, and they did not, you know, associate with you. You were always—You know, they would be watching you. They didn’t want you to see them looking at you. Never talked to me.
DR: And what year was this?
ER: Excuse me. This was in ’66.
DR: So, no conversation?
ER: No conversation.
DR: So, you were isolated?
ER: Hm-hmm [affirmative].
DR: How did that feel?
ER: You were in, you were, like—You were the only one in that class, you know, and that, in my case, I was the only one in my class. I had no other blacks in my class.
DR: How did it feel being isolated like that?
ER: Well, I wish that somebody would come up and talk with me, you know, or show me some kind of levels, but they didn’t.
DR: So, you were there for two years?
ER: Three years.
DR: Three years?
ER: Yeah, because, when I went there, you know, I actually could have been there for two years, but I needed one more subject. And, I didn’t, which I wanted to go back, and I really enjoyed my last year.
DR: So—
ER: Although, it was still just me, I had gotten accustomed to the school.
DR: So, you got adjusted to—
ER: Yes.
DR: …being by yourself?
ER: Yes, and, you know, I just—You know, there were a lot of things I wanted to learn, you know, that I did not get here. And, the subjects were writing a term paper or doing a paper outline, reading a book and doing a book report. I didn’t do those things here at W. Gresham Meggett, you know. So, writing essays. You know, so, I learned a lot here.
DR: So, how would the support from home help you in that environment?
ER: Well, I didn’t really have any support from home. Well, I knew I had to do what I had to do, you know. So, I did it. I just pushed myself to do it, you know, and they were expecting great grades from me, you know.
DR: How would you say that move, transfer to James Island, affected your confidence and self-esteem?
ER: It built my confidence that I can do it, you know, and, you know, I am somebody, you know, and they’re not no better than I am, you know. So, and, I just persevered, and I had the Lord on my side. I did a lot of praying. I learned to pray as an early, as a child—
DR: Yes.
ER: …you know, because, also being alone was not something new to me. Even growing up as a child, I was, you know, alone and called by God as a child.
DR: You stated just now that there was a difference in the academic preparation?
ER: Hm-hmm [affirmative].
DR: Was that because of the different grade that you were going to or just basically it was a complete difference in the academic preparation among the teachers?
ER: Well, it probably was both because we didn’t have the same kind of books that they had here at W. Gresham, and we were just really taught. I should have known about those things earlier than before I went there, you know—
DR: Are you—
ER: …at, like, sixth grade or so.
DR: So, you’re saying that the quality of education at James Island was much higher than what you experienced at Gresham Meggett?
ER: Yes.
DR: Which was a reason for the whole civil rights movement?
ER: Right.
DR: Equal access.
ER: Right.
DR: And it was there that you got equal access?
ER: Yes.
DR: How did the teachers treat you?
ER: The teachers, you know, they did what they had to do. I mean, they did not go out of their way, you know, any specialties, to help or to communicate. If you needed help, they were there to help you because they know they needed to do that, you know, but they were just like the kids, you know.
DR: What do you mean?
ER: They did not show no favoritism or love or—I mean, they’d love, but they—
DR: They were not friendly?
ER: They were not really friendly, no. They just—You know, you were there to get your education. They were the teachers. They’d give you the work. It was up to you to ask questions or do whatever you needed to do.
DR: How was that different from what kind of experience you had at Gresham Meggett?
ER: Gresham Meggett, you know, well, I really wasn’t, you know, that close to my teachers either at Gresham Meggett. So, I just did what I needed to do to get out of that class.
DR: Were you able to notice the difference in our culture and with the culture there that you were introduced to? You described the isolation—
ER: Yeah.
DR: …that no one was friendly. Would you have experienced the same thing at Gresham Meggett?
ER: No, because I had friends at Gresham Meggett. I had friends at Gresham Meggett.
DR: So, if you were to use a few words to sum up your experience at Gresham Meggett, I mean, at James Island, how would you describe that in a sentence or two?
ER: In fact, one time, in my business English class, I wrote my experience at James Island High School, and I didn’t get my paper back. And, I asked. I didn’t know what to write about at first.
DR: Okay.
ER: So, that was one thing the Lord placed in my life. I wrote how I felt, you know, and I didn’t get my paper back. So, I asked my teacher, Ms. Arthur. I said, “Where is my paper?” She said, “You’ll see.” And, that’s all she said to me, “You will see.” So, I didn’t know what that meant, you’ll see. So, they had a newspaper, school newspaper. They had placed the article in my school newspaper.
DR: Really?
ER: And, I—
DR: How did that make you feel?
ER: It made me feel really good. You know, I didn’t know it was that—
DR: So, you didn’t feel betrayed though?
ER: No.
DR: Okay. All right.
ER: I didn’t feel betrayed after I knew what happened to it. You know, I didn’t know that they had placed it there, you know. I tried to keep the paper.
DR: What reaction were you able to notice from students, other people in the community, teachers?
ER: Well, there was no difference. Nobody acknowledged me. Nobody said to me that was a great article, you know. Nobody gave me a compliment, nobody.
DR: Not even the teachers?
ER: Not even the teachers.
DR: Now, if you were at Gresham Meggett and had written that same paper, how do you—
ER: I probably would be recognized by other people, you know, for the accomplishment.
DR: So, history still avoids its acknowledgement of our presence?
ER: Yes.
DR: How did that school prepare you for life?
ER: It was good that I went there. It, like I said, it helped me to gain more confidence in myself. It helped me when I went out to have job interviews, how to conduct myself, how to write sentences and different things. It helped me to get my first job, you know, because I went there, got and graduated. I was able to get hired at the State Employment Service.
DR: Yeah.
ER: That helped. That was a plus there, and also, seven years later, it helped me to be employed at Sealand Service, which I was there for 22 and a half years.
DR: Sea—? What kind of work was that?
ER: That was a shipping and receiving, one of the biggest shipping and receiving company in Charleston.
DR: And you worked there for how many years?
ER: Twenty-two and a half years.
DR: So, you retired from there, or do you still work there?
ER: No. They closed down. They sold out to another company, and, I mean, I left there and I never was without a job.
DR: I hear you.
ER: I stepped out one door and into another.
DR: But you’re able to see the relationship to your education and the preparation for the kind of work that you do?
ER: Oh, yes. And, I’ve come across one student, you know, that I met at James Island High School, and we work together at the State Employment Office. And, again, I met her again at Stiles Point.
DR: Now, was this an African American or an—
ER: No. This is a white girl.
DR: Okay.
ER: She paid attention to me though. She didn’t forget me. She didn’t communicate with me, but she would not—
DR: While she was at school?
ER: Right.
DR: Right.
ER: But, she paid attention.
DR: She changed? Yes.
ER: And, we worked together at the State Employment Service. You know, there was no love lost, you know. I was happy to see her, you know, because the things that they—Some kids did mean stuff, you know. They would put, like getting on the bus, they would put a glue stick or something in the way in the aisles. If you were not paying attention, you would trip up.
DR: Oh, yeah.
ER: You know, they would call us things, you know.
DR: What kind of names would they call you?
ER: Nigger.
DR: How did you respond to them when they did that?
ER: Well, I realized that I’m not a nigger, you know, and that wasn’t me they were talking about. You know, so, I ignored it. Yeah, and went on about my business.
DR: But no physical confrontations?
ER: No physical confrontation. That was not what I was about.
DR: Just verbal abuse?
ER: Hm-hmm [affirmative], yes.
DR: I see. Do you share those stories with your children?
ER: I do. I do tell them.
DR: And, that helps, you think, to give them the confidence that you were able to go through—
ER: Yes.
DR: …and experience?
ER: You’ve got to go through the hard stuff to get to the small stuff. Uh, whew! You know?
DR: Yes.
ER: So, I went through all that to get where I am now.
DR: What else would you want to say? Because, this is going to be preserved for future generations. What else that I might not have mentioned you would want to say at this point?
ER: Don’t be afraid of the unknown because we don’t know what’s in you—ah, praise God—unless you try. And, when you fail, that doesn’t mean that you fail. It just means that you just need to try again.
DR: Start over.
ER: Start over. Never give up.
DR: And, I have just interviewed—
ER: Prophetess Emma Lorraine Richardson.
DR: Thank you very much, Emma.
