This interview was conducted on behalf of Charleston County as part of the project: Stories from Historic African American Communities: A Journey to Equal Education, W. Gresham Meggett High School, James Island, SC. Charleston County was awarded a grant from the Department of Interior and National Park Service (NPS) in 2018 to conduct this oral history project aimed to provide insight into the lives of African American students during desegregation. The project is structured by the NPS research framework: Civil Rights in America: A Framework for Identifying Significant Sites (2002, rev. 2008).
This interview was conducted on March 18, 2019, at St. James Presbyterian Church, James Island, Charleston County, South Carolina. David Richardson (a local Meggett graduate working on behalf of New South Associates) was the interviewer; Jenna Tran (New South Associates) was the technical assistant.
David Richardson: My name is David Richardson and I’m here at St. James Presbyterian Church in the process of interviewing Mr. Green. Would you state your full name?
Edward Greene: My name is Edward Greene.
DR: And what’s your date of birth?
EG: 4/4/45.
DR: Where do you currently live?
EG: I live on James Avenue and Seaside Lane. Charleston, South Carolina.
DR: Were you always living there?
EG: No, I was raised up on 1092 Fort Johnson Road.
DR: And then, so between those two places is where you’ve lived most of your life?
EG: That’s right.
DR: Okay. Where did you spend your childhood?
EG: I spent my childhood on Fort Johnson Road. First, I attend Three Tree School and then later on I attend W. Gresham Meggett Elementary School and then W. Gresham Meggett High School.
DR: Three Tree School?
EG: Yeah.
DR: Where was Three Trees School located?
EG: That was located on Fort Johnson Road across from the Len Geezer Farm [phonetic 00:05:53].
DR: Okay. And what period of time was that, sir?
EG: I attend there for first, second, third and fourth grade.
DR: Who was the principal?
EG: Miss Hamulkul [phonetic 00:06:07]—Miss Greenwood. I’m sorry. Miss Greenwood was the principal.
DR: Okay. And from there where did you go to school at?
EG: Went to W. Gresham Meggett Elementary School.
DR: Okay. What was the father’s name?
EG: My father name?
DR: Hm-hmm [affirmative].
EG: Well, daddy’s name was Samuel Green, my mother’s name was Ciel Green [phonetic 00:06:28].
DR: Samuel Green lived where?
EG: At 1092 Fort Johnson Road.
DR: And what was his occupation?
EG: He first started working at Carolina Supply and Cement Company, for Carolina Supply and Cement Company, and then later on he worked for the State Port Authority.
DR: And your mother?
EG: My mother used to do housework. She used to work for the Oswell [phonetic 00:06:55] family. And then she left there and she used to do housework, do curtain, in her home. And then she later worked for the Sister of Mercy down in Fort Johnson on Fort Johnson Road.
DR: And where did the Oswell family live?
EG: Oswell family live across the street from us on used to be—right now it’s [indistinct 00:07:20] Road. It didn’t have that name before, but it used to be Oswell Place. That’s right across the street from us.
DR: So your early education was at Three Trees and then to Gresham Meggett Elementary.
EG: That’s correct.
DR: And do you have any siblings, brothers and sisters?
EG: Yes, I have seven sisters and I have four brothers.
DR: Where do you fall in line with the family order?
EG: I’m the seventh child.
DR: You’re the last one?
EG: I’m the seventh.
DR: You’re the seventh.
EG: Yeah.
DR: Okay. All right. And was education highly emphasized in your household?
EG: Oh, yeah, education was highly emphasized in my home. My parents used to make sure that a lot of time that we studied. They used to attend PTA. That’s most of the time when they have PTA meeting after school. And then sometime people have to bring cakes and different stuff at the school and you had PTA meetings. So it was very emphasized on education.
DR: Now, this was at the Three Trees School?
EG: This was at W. Gresham Meggett School.
DR: So they were very much involved in your lives…
EG: Right.
DR: …educationally.
EG: Right.
DR: Okay. Where did your parents go to school?
EG: You know, my parents went to school—they had a school right there on Secession Road. I’m trying to remember. It’s Society Corner School. Used to be on Secession Road. That’s the school that they went to.
DR: Okay. On the island, but at Secession Road. It’s Society Corner School. Where did your siblings go to school?
EG: My sister, older sister, they went to school at Gresham Meggett. Three of my sisters went to school at the parochial school at this church which is the James Presbyterian Church parochial school right on Fort Johnson Road. And then the elementary school, they went to school there. Then a little later on, all of them came to Gresham Meggett School. But then when my younger sisters, they started going to school at Gresham Meggett [indistinct 00:09:38] and then later on, some of them went to Fort Johnson, Fort Johnson and—well, [indistinct 00:09:44] split and became Fort Johnson and James Island High, so…
DR: Do you know what years those might have been?
EG: They were in ’69 or ’70. That’s when my younger sister went to Fort Johnson and James Island School.
DR: So you graduated from Gresham Meggett [indistinct 00:10:07]?
EG: [Overtalk] I graduated from Gresham Meggett in ’64.
DR: In ’64.
EG: Hm-hmm [affirmative].
DR: Okay. So that was before the integration of the schools, then.
EG: Yeah, I graduated before they integrated.
DR: Okay. What was it like when you were in elementary school? What was the school day like?
EG: The teachers were real strict. And being by strict, the teachers could have tell our parents what we didn’t do. And that’s one thing we didn’t wanted because if the teachers was right and if the teacher tells them that we didn’t do something, our parents would beat us when we get home.
DR: So they had full confidence in whatever the teacher told them.
EG: They had full confidence in the teacher. The teachers and the neighborhood, they had full confidence. Anything that the neighborhood tell them or the teacher tell them, they are right.
DR: So you grew up at a time when adult had the right to discipline children.
EG: Exactly right. They definitely had. I mean, they’d beat us, they sometime wouldn’t let us look at TV. So I don’t know what I was during the day because we was young guys. We were pretty mischievous during the time. But I think by the neighborhood and the parents, they keep us in check.
DR: Keep us in check, huh.
EG: Yeah.
DR: Hm-hmm [affirmative]. Now, was the school year a full nine months, six months, or how long was the school year?
EG: The school year was nine months.
DR: When the time that you were still working on the farms.
EG: Oh, yeah, definitely. We worked on the farm. We pick up potatoes, we pick up tomatoes, we pick up cucumber, we pick beans. We work in floral bed on people house. We sold Lisitol [phonetic 00:12:06]. We sold Patches Berry [phonetic 00:12:07]. We sold Holly. At that time, we did a lot of making change for ourselves. We’d caddy on the golf course. So we did a lot of work for ourself at the time. We help our parents with the income because, you know, we had 12 kids in the family.
DR: There are 12 of you in the family?
EG: 12 of y’all. So we have to help the parents out at that time.
DR: Tell me, what was the size of the house that you grew up in?
EG: We had three bedrooms, a living room, a dining room and a kitchen. My first house we had a outdoor toilet, see? And we had to pump water. We had to pump water to wash, we had to pump water to rinse. One to wash, one to rinse. And had a hand pump. Had outdoor toilet. And a lot of time our parents had a field that we had to go in and haul, pick beans. And then we have to go and get wood to warm by, go in the woods and get woods. Each one of us have to get a bundle of wood and then sometimes we have to get wood to make sure that father catch the fire in the morning.
The boy had to be wake up by the time he go to work because we knew that we would grow up to be mans and we have to get a job. We used to wonder why, “It’s not time for me to go to work, why we have to get up early with him?” So he got us up early. Say, “I want you to put your shoes on and put your pants on. You can go back to laying in bed. But if somebody call you to work, you can be—First of all, you got to pick up whatever he needs and head off to work. But if you don’t, if somebody got a will in you to talk about, ‘I got to put my pants on,’ they going to get somebody else.” So he say, “Stay ready, man, put the shoes on, then you can lay back on your beds.”
DR: Directing your attention back to Gresham Meggett, were you able to be aware of the difference between the black school and the white school?
EG: Oh, yeah, definitely. When we were coming up, we get the leftover book or the reject book. Any of the writing books used to come to our school and we used to get the book that Jane Bellon High [phonetic 00:15:53], they done finish with it and we get the book. But one thing I will say about teachers, we had homework and we had stuff like that, and if we don’t do it, they keep us after school. I notice that with the [indistinct 00:16:14] we played football, our parents put on different stuff, teas and different stuff like that, to buy and support to try to get a light, we play football.
DR: So you’re telling me they raised money to buy the equipments.
EG: Buy the equipment, buy the lights. [Indistinct 00:16:32] everybody else, James Island and them had their lights and we never had our lights. It been a while before we could get lights up there. And then when we got our lights out there, everybody was so happy when we got our…
DR: So you don’t think those two schools were equal.
EG: No, definitely not. Definitely not. They wasn’t equal. We knew that.
DR: When Gresham Meggett was consolidated into the high school, was there any suspicion in the community why they built that school?
EG: Why they built…
DR: Gresham Meggett.
EG: They built Gresham Meggett at the time. They built Gresham Meggett because they didn’t want us to mingle with the kids in [indistinct 00:17:21]. You don’t want us to be together. That’s why they built the high school. But our high school was the first black high school in the island. Before that, people used to go to—when they finish their elementary school, they had to go to Burke School to finish up.
DR: So what did Gresham Meggett mean to you?
EG: Gresham Meggett mean a lot to me because right now, all the rest of schools that blacks used to go to, they either tore it down or it’s not there anymore. And to have Gresham Meggett still standing there, it’s mean a lot. We cherish that. We have some good times at Gresham Meggett. The teachers there mean a lot. The teachers see that we grow up in the right direction.
DR: So are you saying that you believe the teachers really cared about their students.
EG: Oh, yeah. Back that time, the teachers really cared about you. Because either you going to do the work, and if you don’t do the work, they going to keep you after school and make you do it. And if you talk in school and disrupt them, they’ll keep you in school and make you write 50 time, a hundred time on the paper what you were doing wrong, or if you wasn’t paying attention. And they keep you. And you bet they going to tell your parents that they keeping you and you have to walk home, see?
DR: Let me ask this question: You know what the Gullah language means?
EG: Gullah language means?
DR: Gullah language.
EG: Yeah.
DR: Did you all speak Gullah or you spoke English at Gresham Meggett when you were in class?
EG: Coming to school, all of us speak Gullah. But then in the time that when we go to English class, our teacher was kind of straighten it out the right way, you know, because the English teachers, they going to make you speak the right way. But then we go right back and in another class we speak the Gullah language.
DR: So you’re saying the teachers didn’t make you ashamed of your language, then.
EG: No.
DR: So they taught y’all, but they did not discourage you using your language, the Gullah language.
EG: No, they didn’t discourage us. They would make you say the right word at the time when you in your class, but they don’t discourage us from speaking Gullah.
DR: So they taught English like a second language to you there.
EG: That’s right [laughs].
DR: You know, many of our families have traveled away, places like New York. And people up there said they speak different. Bad English. Make them ashamed. Did you feel that way when you were at Gresham Meggett, ashamed of your language?
EG: No, no, I wasn’t afraid of my language.
DR: And you still speak it, don’t you?
EG: Oh, yeah, definitely [laughs].
DR: Now, do you think the community was proud of Gresham Meggett?
EG: Oh, yeah, very proud. Especially when we have football game and different game, we really get good support. PTA, really good support. So they are proud of the school in the community.
DR: Was the school construction an improvement from Three Trees?
EG: Oh, yeah, definitely.
DR: Tell me about that. What’s Three Trees was like?
EG: Three Tree was a wooden structure. We had three classes in Three Tree School. And we had a big potbelly stove in the corner that you had to get wood and put in the stove. And then you have the principal used to teach one class, which is Miss Greenwood, Miss Alma Greenwood [phonetic 00:21:10] would teach one class, and Miss Sanders used to teach the other class.
DR: So those are the three teachers?
EG: Those are the three teachers.
DR: How many students in a class? I mean, how many classes? How many different grades in a class?
EG: Oh, man. I’ll try to remember. It was first, second, third and fourth grade for me. And so a teacher used to had two classes. One teacher used to have two. They have one in the back and one in the front.
DR: Two grades, then.
EG: Yeah, two grades.
DR: In one class.
EG: In one class.
DR: So how many classrooms did y’all have at Three Trees?
EG: Three. Three classes.
DR: Three classes.
EG: Yeah.
DR: And so if there were three, there were six grades there, then.
EG: I can’t remember. It’s been a long time. I remember we used to have one in the back and one in the front. And sometimes we used to get distracted by some of them be talking.
DR: Tell me about that potbelly stove.
EG: Our potbelly stove, it must be, what, about five feet high. And they used to heat they coffee on the top. We used to get wood and put in. You had wood in the afternoon. Anytime somebody do something bad, they had to go out there and get the wood and [indistinct 00:22:22] that wood in the corner. And then you got to put the wood in the stove and keep the heat going, you know. But it was nice, yeah. We all enjoyed that.
DR: Now, when you went over to Gresham Meggett, you just describe sort of what the classroom was like at Three Trees. Those teachers at Three Trees also went over to Gresham Meggett, the new school?
EG: Yeah, they went over there.
DR: Did they continue to teach two classes, two grades in one class?
EG: No, they only had one class there.
DR: So when you got to Gresham Meggett, your first change was every teacher had one class.
EG: That’s right, one class.
DR: And was that because you had Three Trees taught students within this community off of Fort Johnson Road.
EG: Hm-hmm [affirmative].
DR: But when you went to Gresham Meggett, there were students from other areas of the island.
EG: Mostly on James Island. Mostly around, like, Fort Johnson Road, Cap Road, Green Hills and community like that. When you get beyond what we call [indistinct 00:23:37] or Tea Lake, which is going back on Fort Johnson Road, then people from there used to go to the parochial school.
DR: And where was that?
EG: That’s at this place. Location’s in James Presbyterian Church. Parochial school. So everybody from camp in Fort Johnson go to parochial school and everybody from camp on the other side of Camp Road going to Three Tree School.
DR: You ever heard the term Sanders School [sounds like 00:24:05]?
EG: Yeah.
DR: What does that mean?
EG: Sanders School and parochial school are the same.
DR: Where was Sanders school?
EG: Sanders school was on St. James Presbyterian Church property.
DR: Oh, so that was the Presbyterian school.
EG: Yeah.
DR: What happened in May at these schools?
EG: May Day. May Day for parochial schools or Sanders school. Parochial school, I mean, they had May Day. And May Day right now is still going on. This is the 89th year, coming this year, for the school. 89th.
DR: Did you go to May Days?
EG: Oh, yeah. I used to go to one because my sister used to be [indistinct 00:24:55] in the parochial school. And I attend those. And then ever since they came, St. James take over from the parochial school. I attended all those except for the time when I went away to college and the time that I went away with military. So I attended part of all of them.
DR: So when you transferred to Gresham Meggett, it first was an elementary school?
EG: Yeah.
DR: And then it grew and became a high school.
EG: Hm-hmm [affirmative].
DR: Who was the principal?
EG: Mr. Leroy Anderson [phonetic 00:25:34].
DR: What do you remember about Mr. Anderson?
EG: [Laughs] Mr. Anderson was a tough cookie. But he [indistinct 00:25:46]. Mr. Anderson, he used to go around carrying a lash, Lash La Rue [phonetic 00:25:50]. Mostly about a two-and-a-half foot [indistinct 00:25:53] on the side of them called [him] Lash La Rue. And I remember distinct that we had a…
DR: [Indistinct 00:25:59]
EG: Yeah.
DR: Wasn’t a cowboy that used to have that name, too?
EG: [Laughs] Yeah. Yeah, a cowboy used to have that.
DR: And what was that with the cowboy? It was a whip, wasn’t it?
EG: Yeah, with a whoop, that’s right. And we used to go to the store. Just before you get to Gresham Meggett School, there was a store near, about 200 feet away from the school.
DR: Talking about Patsy’s Store [phonetic 00:26:28]?
EG: Patsy’s Store. And we used to go in there. And the bell used to ring. Mr. Anderson come in there with that whoop [laughs] and he cleaned the house [laughter], cleaned the house with that whoop coming out there.
DR: Be sending you into class.
EG: Yeah, send you to class [laughter]. And he used to walk down the hallway. Anybody be walking down in the hall he used to use that whoop.
DR: Were they afraid of him or respected him?
EG: They respected him.
DR: You think he cared about the students?
EG: Oh, yeah, definitely. He cared about them. But he wanted them to be in class when the bell ring. He don’t want you to be walking the hall because a lot of guys come to class and they used to go to the bathroom and they used to walk in the hall. So he will make sure the students is in the class.
DR: So when you first went there, did you change classes or all day you stay in the same class with the same teacher?
EG: Yeah. In the elementary side, you stay in class all day. In the elementary school.
DR: So but when you went to high school…
EG: We changed class.
DR: Okay. And so the students would go to the different teachers’ class.
EG: Right. Hm-hmm [affirmative].
DR: I see. You had homeroom teacher?
EG: Oh, yeah, definitely had a homeroom teacher.
DR: Who was your homeroom teacher then?
EG: Oh, I had Mr. Mack [phonetic 00:27:50] be the homeroom teacher one time. Then I had Miss Bennett. Then I have Miss Spears. Miss Spears—I mean, Miss Bennett and Banks, the same. Miss Bennett used to be Miss Banks before she got married. Then she became Miss Bennett. Then I have Miss Spears as a homeroom teacher.
DR: Now, you stated a minute ago that you were aware of the difference between the white and black school.
EG: Hm-hmm [affirmative].
DR: How do you know that? Tell me how you know that there was a difference.
EG: Well, for one thing, we always get the old books. And I knew at the time that when we pay for books, we pay for new books. And we was told that some of the books you could see had “James Island High” in the book. So we knew the book come from them to us. When time for our lights, the James Island people had their lights way before us. It took a long time for we to get our lights. And that’s why we know we wasn’t…
DR: So how did you get your lights?
EG: Hard working parents.
DR: They raised the money themselves, huh.
EG: Raised the money themselves to get lights and put on different PTA teas and different stuff like that to get the money for the lights.
DR: Did the teachers ever teach y’all that there was a responsibility to do better?
EG: Oh, yes, they all would tell us that you got a responsibility to get our work, and if we don’t get our work, how do we expect to achieve and get ahead. You say that education is one thing that when you get an education, nobody can take that away. And they described to us to do better. And especially in the future if you want to go to college, you need to study, you need to get your work. And the good part about [indistinct 00:30:26] make us recite the poems and different stuff like that, they get down on us about that.
DR: Do you have any of your siblings that went to James Allen High after you left?
EG: Yeah, I had my baby sister went there and then I had three of my sister went there. Three of my sister went to James Island High School.
DR: Did y’all ever talk about the difference in the experience?
EG: Only thing I know they say is they didn’t like the idea. They would have liked to finish Gresham Meggett because at that time it seemed like they wasn’t being treated equal. And they always talk about it. “We really want to [indistinct 00:31:22] finish Gresham Meggett.”
DR: So you think that they had the belief that the white teachers didn’t want to teach them?
EG: I didn’t quite ask them about that, but I know I think about more that the way the student around them treat them.
DR: Oh, the peer treatment.
EG: Yeah. I didn’t get the information that they say anything about the teachers, more likely the peers, the way it’s around them when they went; the way the children themselves…
DR: Would treat them.
EG: …would treat them.
DR: How did they describe that?
EG: You see, they didn’t want them there.
DR: So they were hostile?
EG: Sometime they were hostile. They actually had to be in a group together, otherwise, they would be, you know, a fight.
DR: So the black students that was in the white school, that were attending the white school, felt the need for them to go around together for protection.
EG: Yeah.
DR: But what about those that were in different grades? That corralling only occurred during the recess or other times during the school?
EG: Mostly, they were trying to sit together in the class, but the teacher…
DR: Split them up?
EG: …split them up. So when they go to recess, most likely, they be together because that’s the time that you could see the integrated schools together, the kids around there feel as though they didn’t want them there. So they have to mingle together in order to feel to be safe by their being with their peers.
DR: So there were fights?
EG: I can’t recall if she’d tell me anything about fights, but I know they say they felt the unevenness in them that they didn’t want them there.
DR: What did you do after you left Gresham Meggett, when you graduated in ’64, did you say?
EG: In ’64.
DR: Then what did you do?
EG: I had two scholarship. I had one football, one golf, with South Carolina State. Started at South Carolina State. And being at the time, the service used to have two electives. They used to have a 1-A and 2-A. And a 2-A mean that you in secondary school; 1-A mean that, you know, you just registered. And so I been in the ROTC at South Carolina State. And then when I went to South Carolina State, you know, Coach Dawson [phonetic 00:34:05] went to coach for golf. And I was a cross-handed golfer when I went there. [Indistinct 00:34:11].
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EG: Well, a cross-hand golfer mean that you cross hand. You don’t hold the club the same way that regular people hold the club.
DR: Okay.
EG: So he said, “Green, I’m going to give you a bag of ball and I want you to change.” I was pretty good cross-hand…
DR: Okay.
EG: …but he said, “You going to change.” So I said, “Coach,” I said, “I’m pretty good where I is.” He says, “No, you going to change.” So he gave me the idea. He says, “Now, here it is. I want you to change.” So I went on and hit ball and practiced and practiced and I did change. But in the meantime, I was in ROTC. We used to walk through the campus, every afternoon on campus. And when we used to walk through the campus…
DR: This is marching or just walking?
EG: Marching.
DR: Okay.
EG: Marching with ROTC. I had a sergeant named Sergeant Jackson. Never forgot his name long as I live. And he told me, he say—I can’t remember whether I went home that weekend or what, but I happened to…
DR: Excuse me, Mr. Green, but South Carolina State College is located…
EG: In Orangeburg, South Carolina.
DR: Okay.
EG: Yeah.
DR: And is it a private or State school?
EG: It’s a State school.
DR: Okay. Go on.
EG: So anyhow, I got the letter from there, from Selective Services. Wherever you at, it’s just telling you to report to the nearest recruiting station. So you know…
DR: Drafting you?
EG: Yeah. I never thought nothing else. I mean, I’m in college. You know, I never thought [indistinct 00:35:37]. So sergeant say, “Green, you think you going to be living tomorrow morning?” So I look at him all like that and I said, “Yeah, I think I’m going to be living.” He said, “Well, you better report to your nearest recruiting station.” So…
DR: Did you understand why he asked that question?
EG: You know, I just was dumbfounded as he was. I said, you know, you got to take a little [indistinct 00:36:06]. I guess he say since he’s military, he can’t do nothing with them at the time. So I just catch the bus and went down there. So I feel I’ll be back in the morning. I woke up…
DR: Now, this is the bus in Orangeburg.
EG: Yeah.
DR: Okay.
EG: So I went down there, Fort Jackson, went down there. So I say…
DR: You went to Fort Jackson?
EG: Yeah.
DR: Because Orangeburg—Fort Jackson is out of Columbia.
EG: Fort Jackson’s in Columbia.
DR: You had an induction notice or…
EG: The letter was an induction [laughter]. And that’s why I took it to the sergeant of ROTC. So he told me, he said if I live tomorrow morning, you know, “You think you going to live tomorrow morning?” I said yeah. So he says, “Well, you better report to the Navy.”
DR: That’s the urgency of it.
EG: Yeah. So I report down there. So when I report down there, [indistinct 00:36:52] I say, “Well, you know, I’ll be back, you know.” So I see the guy. I say, “This letter here came to me, but I’m in college. And why you send me this letter here?” He said, “Well, we sent you several letters and why didn’t you answer?” I say, “I didn’t answer because I’m not home, I’m in school.” He said, “Well, why wasn’t you getting your letter?” I said, “My mother didn’t send the letter to me.” He said, “Well, this letter here, you in the Army now.” Well, my heart dropped.
DR: Just like that?
EG: My heart dropped. And I just knew President Turner was at the time the president of the college, and along with Sergeant Jackson, I just knew they’d get me. So you know, I wasn’t responding to hardly nobody yet. I was angry at the time. Very angry. So anyhow, that went on. And nobody never responded to me. And I was in the military [laughs].
DR: So did you leave Columbia to go back to Orangeburg or you stayed in Columbia when we you went to the…
EG: No, they kept me. But at the time they kept me, I was just feel that I’m going back to school. But I thought all the time, you know, they was getting everything ready for “We made a mistake.” So anyhow, I went in the military. I was pretty mad at everybody then before the [indistinct 00:38:24].
DR: Changed your plans, then.
EG: Huh?
DR: Changed your plans.
EG: Yeah, we changed the plan. So anyhow, I went on in. Been in there. Saw two years. Been in Vietnam for a year. Fort Gordon. From Fort Jordan, went to Fort Polk, Louisiana. From Fort Polk, Louisiana went to Vietnam. Back from Vietnam back…
DR: You had two tours in Vietnam?
EG: No, I had one, see. And then after, I went to Fort Benning in Georgia. I went to Fort Benning in Georgia and they were trying to get me to re-up. And being that my MOS was [indistinct 00:39:02] which was a weapon, so I told them I wasn’t going to [indistinct 00:39:09]. They say, “Would you like to play golf?” I say, “Yeah, I would like to play golf.” They say, “Well, we can give you a job on the golf course.” But I knew that my MOS I had, they would send me back to Vietnam and I just barely got out of there. I just barely got out of Vietnam. So I said no, I wasn’t going to re-up.
DR: So you were going to come back in Nam?
EG: Yeah. [Indistinct 00:39:29] carry an M-60 for one year. So once I got out of there, I went back to school. My scholarship was still good.
DR: So this is two years now.
EG: Huh?
DR: This is two years [indistinct 00:39:43].
EG: [Overtalk] Two years in the military.
DR: And they released you after you did that tour.
EG: Yeah.
DR: And you returned back to State.
EG: No, I didn’t go back to State. I went back there just to talk to Coach. Coach told me, he said my scholarship was still good. But right then, I figured after you come back you’re so mixed up from the war. And so I went and I got a job for the first year with South Carolina Electric and Gas to be a lineman. Because I was going to school to be an electrical engineer.
DR: Oh, yeah?
EG: So anyhow, and then after I worked with them for a year, they were training me to be a lineman. And just out making me take all these—one month you be on the pole truck, one month you be on the service truck until you learn to be a lineman. And you just had to dig the hole for the [indistinct 00:40:41] transformer, you know, when you put in a new section. So I told them I dig enough foxholes in Vietnam. I say I don’t want to dig no more foxhole. So I stopped. I leave there and I went to Tech and get my Associates Degree in Electrical Engineer.
When I was going to school to be a electrical engineer, Associates Degree [indistinct 00:41:00]. And then I was going to school at the same time to be a journeyman electrician. So I was studying to be a general electrician, at the same time I wanted to get my Associates degree in electrical engineering. I traveled for a different place. I help World Trade Building in New York City before it blew up. Belview Hospital in New York City. I light their substation on [indistinct 00:41:28] Beach. I went to Missouri. I went to several different other state doing electrical work. And then I end up back at the VA Hospital being the electrical supervisor there for 37 years. And then I retired in ’09. 2009.
But I remember going back to summer days at the W. Gresham Meggett and [indistinct 00:42:02] used to bring pecan to school to sell. And Stucky [phonetic 00:42:06] used to take the pear farmer, he used to sell the pears for three cent and three for a dime and make money [laughs]. I always used to tell Stucky about…
DR: [Overtalk] Where the pear came from?
EG: Arthur [Indistinct 00:42:20] had a tree with pears on them. And then with pecan, he used to sell pecan and he used to sell pears.
DR: That’s right.
EG: And then Stucky [indistinct 00:42:28] used to take a box [laughs]. [Indistinct 00:42:30] you remember that shit?” [Laughs] I say yeah. I tell [indistinct 00:42:35] every time I saw [indistinct 00:42:36] “You remember when Stucky used to take your pear?” He says, “You remember that?” [Laughs] “Yeah.” But we had a good time.
I remember when we used to—English teacher. We call her Big Rich. Mrs. Richardson.
DR: Cornelia [phonetic 00:42:57].
EG: Yeah—No, no, Corne…
DR: Cornelia.
EG: Yeah. And we used to walk from down there at Ocean View and Fort Johnson Road, had to walk to school. And when we missed the bus, we used to have to catch Big Rich. She had a ’55 Chevy. All of us used to miss the bus, so we have to get on Big Rich and we have to sit on Tubby [indistinct 00:43:23] lap. And he drive that car be all the way down and back and he bring us to school. And when we missed [indistinct 00:43:31], she live about two block from our house. When we miss it, then we have to walk to school. And then when we walk to school, we have to stay to school late because we get to school late. The teacher make us stay late.
But our father, we had a big bull. And we used to have to chase that bull before we come to school. We have to stake him and take him to a new place and eat grass. And me and my brother, we used to go down there so there was a chance to move the bull to another location down Ocean View Road. And when we take it there, we pull our stake up, that bull drag me and my brother across that marsh. And we only got on our school clothes. Soaking wet through the ditch.
So the next day, our father ask me, he say, “Did y’all”—We didn’t go the next day, we didn’t move the bull because the bull dragged us. But our father, we get a beating because we didn’t move him because my father going to check and you don’t want to [indistinct 00:44:30]. So we say we going to get a beating if we doesn’t get well, we got to walk to school. We got to find a way how we can do the bull.
So me and my brother said, “Yeah, well, I’ll tell you what we do. We go look at a spot ahead and see where a tree was.” So after we pull the bull up and he start walking, we probably give him some slack and wrap him around that tree. And when he go up and jerk back like that, when he jerk back, we say, “We got him now.” [Laugher] Then I’m taking him from the tree and we stake him down. But boy, that bull drag us through the water. [Indistinct 00:45:07] going to school, you know. So we walked all the way to Gresham Meggett School. And then when we get there, we might done missed the first period class…
DR: So what distance that is?
EG: Gresham Meggett School is, I say, about two miles. About two miles from there.
DR: So Gresham Meggett School is a little better than a mile from Folly Road.
EG: Mile from Folly Road?
DR: From Folly Road is about a mile.
EG: Well, we walked three miles, then [laughs]. But we walked that bull, I tell you. But we had…
DR: And St. James is about a mile from Folly Road.
EG: Yeah. It’s a good three miles.
DR: So you know, you talking about another two miles down the road.
EG: Yeah, we walk. The moment we get there, so they, “Why y’all late?” [Laughs]. The teacher want to know why we late. So they think we done do something wrong. And we tell them, you know. But that’s what happens. But the kick was they don’t know what you got told to do. Because like I say, we have to go in the woods, we have to do this. But these kids don’t have no chore like we used to do like that.
DR: They’re not sit down, play games because there were no TVs then.
EG: Yeah, we had chores to do.
DR: So how did you all find things to play with?
EG: Oh, man, we had—The Beasleys [phonetic 00:46:32] lived right across the street from us. You know, we had a lot of kids, so our father got us one BB gun between the three boys. And we had a BB gun. So we used to go hunting with the Beasleys, which is the white folks across the street. They had three boys: Jimmy, Johnny and Joe. So we go across the woods across the street…
DR: How old were you at this time, now?
EG: At that time, we were about nine, 10, 11, 12. So we used to go hunting in the woods, the big wood been behind they house right across there.
DR: So even though they were white boys, at that age y’all all played together.
EG: Yeah, we played together. We lived right across the street from each other. My sister used to work for them. And you know, all of us became friends. So we went there and we shoot bird with them. And then we borrowed their gun, because they had guns, too, and we borrowed their gun and went. We used to become good shooters. Then they say, “Okay. Y’all can come [indistinct 00:47:32].” All of us together run behind the bird.
See, when we killed bird then, we eat it, see? They don’t do like that. We put four, five, six of them bird in a pot and put some salt and pepper on it and we eat those up.
DR: So y’all cleaned the bird and it became a meal.
EG: Oh, yeah. We eat them birds. Rabbit.
DR: It was no sport, then, huh?
EG: Yeah. No, it wasn’t no sport then [laughs]. That’s why I tell one guy now, “If y’all kill those bird now, y’all need to eat it. If you don’t want to be eat it, don’t kill it.”
DR: That’s right.
EG: Yeah. We had rabbits. And we used to eat the rabbit heads. Yeah, rabbit heads. We eat the rabbits. We used to eat the coon. We used to eat the possum.
DR: So you used to hunt rabbit with stick first?
EG: Yeah. Hm-hmm [affirmative]. We’d bury the rabbit and hit him in the head. We put nails in a bowl and bell [sounds like 00:48:13]. It was good. We enjoy ourself in those days. We used parachutes. They had tennis. There used to be tennis. My daddy used to measure the foot, measured your shoes with a cord. Put a knot on one end and a knot on the other end. And then when he go to the store, he measured shoes, and then buy them [indistinct 00:48:42].
EG: That’s what our parents used to do.
DR: Now, you talked about playing golf. How did that happen?
EG: I used to caddy. We and my brother-in-law, we used to caddy over at the country club in Charleston.
DR: And where was that located?
EG: That’s about a couple miles from our house. We used to go there and caddy. Everybody in the country club used to own something. Frank Ford used to own the Redi Mix Company. [Indistinct 00:49:09] used to own the Redi Mix Company [indistinct 00:49:11]…
DR: [Overtalk] That community were occupied by businessowners, then.
EG: The golf course. Everybody playing the golf course owned something. Had [indistinct 00:49:20].
DR: [Overtalk] Now, the country club is located near the Wappoo area?
EG: Wappoo, yeah. The old Wappoo Bridge and the new Wappoo Bridge. Back there.
DR: So that’s close to the McLeod Plantation?
EG: Yeah, right across from the McLeod Plantation. We used to go to the McLeod Plantation. McLeod used to have a gun, a shotgun. And we used to cut through those paths to go to the golf course. And you know, it was a wooded area. And he would take a gun and he’d shoot it in the air. We’d have to go the long way, walk the highway around. But we used to run through them McLeod. He’d park a car right in the front.
DR: Do you remember the name Lizzie Robinson [phonetic 00:50:00]?
EG: Livvy who?
DR: Lizzie Robinson.
EG: Yeah, I remember the name.
DR: Did you know where she lived?
EG: Lizzie Robinson used to live on Cuth idge [phonetic 00:50:08].
DR: No. You know where the [indistinct 00:50:16] stores are?
EG: Yeah.
DR: The James Island Shopping Center.
EG: Hm-hmm [affirmative].
DR: She used to live there.
EG: Used to live right there?
DR: Which was part of the McLeod Plantation.
EG: Oh. I remember Big Jerry used to live back in there.
DR: I don’t remember Big Jerry.
EG: You know where the [indistinct 00:50:32] house at?
DR: Yeah.
EG: Big Jerry used to live in the first one.
DR: [Overtalk] Oh, okay. In one of them houses. Okay.
EG: Big Jerry used to work in the first one. And then he had [indistinct 00:50:41] used to live in the second one.
DR: I remember that.
EG: And then [indistinct 00:50:44]. And then J.B. used to live in the third one, I believe.
DR: J.B. Bree [phonetic 00:50:50]?
EG: No. J.B.—What’s J.B. last name, man? I remember J’s last name, but I can’t remember. But anyhow, that’s what we used to do at the golf course. But going back to the golf course, we learned how to caddy on the golf course. And when we first started, we used to take the out of bounds stake. The stake used to be two-by-two and it used to be painted white. So we pulled the out-of-bounds stake.
DR: So that was measuring the perimeter, some part of the golf course.
EG: Right.
DR: So you go…
EG: We used to take that and hit the golf ball with that. And then next [indistinct 00:51:31] we used to take the Coca-Cola bottle, the back of it, and play golf with that. Either that or a Pepsi Cola bottle. When we get on the green, we used the bottle to putt with, okay? And then sooner or later, we had found a club. And when we find a club, then everybody take turn hitting with that club. And then finally, later on in the year sometime, we get a chance, somebody give us some clubs.
DR: So when does he get a chance to play on the green, then?
EG: When did we get a chance? After we finish caddy, on the way home, walking back from the golf course, we would just get on the tee and we throw the ball on the field there with our hand. And then when we throw it on the hand, we take about four shot or something like that, and then we throw them on the green. And when we throw them on the green, we either putt with our out-of-bound stick or we use the bottle. Mostly the bottle because we don’t want to tear up the green if we do the stick. So we take the bottle and putt on the green instead of going home.
DR: So in order to go home, you all went Harbor View Road or you went Folly Road?
EG: No, we went Folly. Used to be a station where the bank is at now. We used to be on the side of the road and we’d hitchhike. And then sometime [indistinct 00:52:58] or one of the people come by and they’ll stop and they pick up all of us because they know we pay a nickel or a dime to go home.
DR: Now, you talking about where the Shell station was?
EG: Yeah.
DR: So that’s where you all went and wait for a ride.
EG: Yeah, we wait for a ride there.
DR: So where Harbor View Road now, there was not a bridge across the river?
EG: No. You know, it’s Harbor View Road now. That road wasn’t there.
DR: Okay.
EG: See? Everybody used to come around to Folly side.
DR: Through Camp Road [phonetic 00:53:30].
EG: Camp Road or Folly Road.
DR: Folly Road to Camp.
EG: Yeah, yeah. So we just kept a ride there and they’d put us out by Baptist Church corner. And then we put in our [indistinct 00:53:39] and then we walked the rest of the way home. And then when it get early in the ’70, then sometime I’ll…
DR: So Mr. Green, are you going to tell me that you learned to play golf by using a Coca-Cola bottle on the green?
EG: Yeah, that’s how we learn to play golf.
DR: That’s the way you were able to get a scholarship to get admitted to South Carolina State College?
EG: No. After [indistinct 00:54:02] we start—people have—like I say, they give us some clubs. You caddy for somebody…
DR: And then they…
EG: …and they give us one or two club. And then after that. And then my brother-in-law had a set of clubs. And then Moon Rock [phonetic 00:54:15] was open up. Moon Rock on Grimball Road. And then we…
DR: Tell me about what was Little Rock?
EG: Oh, man, that was a nice golf course. The first black golf course on the island. First black golf. And man, that was…
DR: Was it private or public?
EG: Oh, it was a private club, but anybody could go play on it.
DR: And where was this located?
EG: On Grimball Road.
DR: Now, Gresham Meggett is on Grimball Road, too, isn’t it?
EG: That’s about a half-a-mile before you get to Gresham Meggett School.
DR: Okay. Gresham Meggett was on the left side of…
EG: And Little Rock was on the left side. Little Rock. They had a six-hole municipal golf course.
DR: You played on that?
EG: Oh, yeah. I play on that for many, many a time. Before we could play on the municipal golf course, that’s all we had to play on because municipal, we used to pay a tax.
DR: So you telling me there were two golf courses, major golf courses, on the island?
EG: One first. The municipal golf course was there first. But then it was segregated because they wouldn’t let the blacks play on the golf course. And then Little Rock would let on. Little Rock was built on [indistinct 00:55:24].
DR: [Overtalk] But I hear you tell me that there was a golf course near the McLeod Plantation.
EG: That was a country club. That was strictly private. But then the one that they built on Maybank Highway, it was a public golf course, but then they still don’t want blacks to play on it.
DR: Did you all caddy at that one?
EG: Yeah, we caddied at that. The people from the country club used to go over there. They had a March of Dime blitz [phonetic 00:55:48] they used to play. So the people from the country club used to take their caddy over to the…
DR: The municipal?
EG: …municipal golf course. The caddy. So we go over there and caddy with them over there. And then the caddy over there sometime is, too. You know, the caddy over there would caddy. Everybody combine together because when it be a March of Dime blitz, the country club and the muni, all their members get together and they be one big blitz.
DR: On the municipal…
EG: On the muni, see?
DR: At the municipal course.
EG: Right. And that’s been the big thing they used to do back in that day, you see. But then finally, we had some members went around and they protest. Jack White and some other members protest on them, on the golf course. And then finally, they was able to let blacks play on the…
DR: Do you remember what year that was when blacks were able to play?
EG: That must have been in about ’50—about ’60.
DR: [Overtalk] Now, was that before you graduated from Gresham Meggett?
EG: Yeah, that was before I graduated from Gresham Meggett.
DR: So black folks started playing on the municipal before ’64.
EG: Yeah. Hm-hmm [affirmative].
DR: I see.
EG: Yep.
DR: You still play golf?
EG: Oh, yeah, still play.
DR: How often do you get to play?
EG: I get to play about two time a week. Right now, I go to play about 15 tournament a year.
DR: Based on your overall experience, how do you credit Gresham Meggett for contributing to your experience in life after you left this island?
EG: I’ll say I give them a 90 percent. Why I say that, because they teach you there, especially the man teachers, they instill in us how to get along with the other one [sounds like 00:58:06]. The man is how to control ourself. And by at that time being segregated, it helped us as black more because the parents believe in the teacher and whatever the teacher say go. And it keep us in check because the teacher would call our parents to help keep us in check. And I think Gresham Meggett School, along with the parents, everybody who went there was saying that I think they making us go in the right direction.
And then the rule they got now that the teacher can’t do nothing to the student, we going back in the opposite direction. I’ve been on the [indistinct 00:59:09] school board for 15 years and the things that I’ve seen come through that school board I can write a book on. You can say some of the students and teacher right now, they [indistinct 00:59:21]. The kids can tell them anything and they can’t do nothing about it. Kids can curse them and they can’t do nothing about it.
DR: So you’re saying there are less rules and order?
EG: Definitely.
DR: Do you think some of that relates back to the period of segregation?
EG: Yeah, definitely.
DR: Where they had to protest, and protest requires violating the law because the law was unfair?
EG: Yeah, it was unfair especially because say you got one of the white teachers right now, they don’t want the blacks to tell the student or they don’t want the blacks to teach some of the students, they don’t want the black teachers to correct their student, punish him. But they got to remember that we, as black, our parents have raised a lot of the blacks in their home, have raised a lot of the black that go to the white house and mind their children. And so I don’t know why they think that at this time they don’t want the black teachers to scold their children when they’re going the wrong direction because you…
DR: So that’s what your…
EG: …you not born—white or black, you not born to hate nobody, you are teached to hate people.
DR: [Overtalk] So that’s what you saw and, you know, you experienced when you sat on the school board?
EG: Yeah. See, I mean, I see it in a lot of student. And you can tell the way they talk and then you can see it in there. I mean, from the young to the old, they come to [indistinct 01:01:14].
DR: [Overtalk] So when you were at Gresham Meggett you had only black teachers.
EG: Yeah, definitely. All black.
DR: So the white schools that you served over when you were on the school board, they were integrated.
EG: Yeah.
DR: What kind of numbers of black teachers did they have at those schools?
EG: Through the Murray-LaSaine, they had majority of blacks there. [Indistinct 01:01:39].
DR: Did you have less problems at those schools when the majority of teachers were black teachers and administration was black, too?
EG: Yeah.
DR: They had less problems that you all noticed.
EG: As [indistinct 01:01:52] because Murray-LaSaine was combined. Murray-LaSaine, at that time, they had about 20 percent, 30 percent white. James Island had more whites than black. Fort Johnson did the same thing.
DR: Now, tell me, what grades were at these three schools you’re describing?
EG: Murray-LaSaine been from the first grade to the fifth grade and then the middle school go from sixth to the eighth grade.
DR: And these schools were for the entire island or just sections?
EG: No, this school…
DR: Part of the same…
EG: They been for the entire island.
DR: For the entire island?
EG: Yeah.
DR: Okay. They were bussed there from all over the island.
EG: Yeah. Murray-LaSaine, Harbor View, the elementary school, and Star Point [phonetic 01:02:36] was the elementary school. But then you had at that time two middle school and two high school, okay?
DR: Okay. That’s it.
